Let's Talk, People: Episode 38

PERFORMANCE ISN'T ENOUGH

VISIBILITY IS THE REAL CAREER CURRENCY

[00:00:00] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Hi, I'm Emily Frieze-Kemeny, host of Let's Talk, People, where leaders come to bridge humanity and profitability. Informed by a couple decades of work as a Head of Talent and Leadership Development, I'm here to amplify leaders so they can exalt everyone and everything they touch. Are you ready? 'Cause it's about to get real.

[00:00:28] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Let's talk, people.

[00:00:36] Emily Frieze-Kemeny:  If you, like me, are here because of your passion for talking leadership and growing your impact and those around you, I want to invite you to check out our new leadership model, Pivot Player. Pivot Player is informed by our research working with thousands of global leaders over the last two decades.

[00:00:53] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: You can learn more about Pivot Player by heading to PivotPlayer.com, where you can also take our free leadership survey and find out which leadership suit or suits you've likely been wearing. Okay. Let's get into the episode.

[00:01:10] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I am really looking forward to having you meet May Busch, who's the former Chief Operating Officer of Morgan Stanley Europe, where she was responsible for the development and implementation of the firm's business strategy in Europe, Middle East, and Africa. During May's 24 year career at Morgan Stanley, she served in roles spanning across investment banking, capital markets and firm management.

[00:01:36] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: During her time at Morgan, she chaired the firm's European Diversity Council and was a member of Morgan Stanley's European Management Committee, as well as a board member of the firm's FSA regulated UK broker dealer. Throughout that journey May uncovered a critical insight that shapes her work today, that strong performance alone does not drive our career advancement potential has to be visible to decision makers.

[00:02:06] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: She is the number one bestselling author of the book, Visible and the Founder of Career Mastery. May helps mid-career professionals accelerate their growth while staying authentic and aligned with their values. And speaking of values, we were so happy to have May on because we have so much shared passion for helping leaders to navigate their career journeys and those of their teams.

[00:02:29] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Let's jump into it.

[00:02:31] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: May, it is so wonderful to have you on Let's Talk, People.

[00:02:35] May Busch: It is such a joy to be here with you, Emily and Abby. 

[00:02:39] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: We are excited to get into a topic that you have a lot of experience with, partly because of your kindness and sharing your own career journey with so many and your recent book visible and now helping so many leaders, and those aspiring to be, to figure out how do you navigate being able to grow and expand your career and knowing that there's the functional skill of what it takes to be successful and how you reach points in your career where that no longer seems to be the primary factor in what it takes to really get ahead and navigate. 

[00:03:19] May Busch: Yes. So well said. 

[00:03:21] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I think this is the stuff that either frustrates people, or isn't really explained to us and taught, how do you navigate your career? 

[00:03:30] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And we often individually fall into certain leadership traps without even knowing it. Or limiting beliefs or politics that we didn't understand, so there's all these different aspects that require navigation and it's so great your work that you're doing to create some language and some roadmap for how people can navigate through this versus having to each of us figure it out on our own, with lots of emotions that go along with the missteps and the frustrations. 

[00:04:00] May Busch: Thanks so much, Emily, and this is something that I had to wrestle with for my whole career and this is why I think what you are doing is so valuable and this conversation can be so valuable just to demystify, equip, to share things that work well, things that work less well, so that we can help leaders have an easier time to be their best.

[00:04:30] May Busch: And, well, we all know that the world is in need of great leaders, always. And in this time of change, perhaps more so than ever. 

[00:04:39] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I agree with you and I know we're gonna get into this 'cause of the questions that came in, but one of the things that was on my mind is this idea of, we are social creatures and we do get impacted by the cultures that we're a part of when we work in organizations, but I think sometimes when we go to a more negative place, it feels like you have to conform to a way of being.

[00:05:02] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And I think that's probably the hardest thing for leaders to coach their team members on, is how do you show up in a way where people see you as having potential or see you as a leader already, but being able to honor that a lot of us have different styles and approaches that may look different  and show up differently than what maybe leadership has looked like historically. 

[00:05:25] May Busch: Yes and I really appreciate what you've just said because we all are different from each other and this conformity piece, which is so natural, it's human, right? We have this inbuilt need to belong and yet that can work against us because what I've discovered is it is our very uniqueness that helps us to stand out, add greater value, and this is what we need to help people find and help other people recognize and respect as a positive. 

[00:06:01] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So important. Before we jump in I had the pleasure of reading your book Visible and I wanted to see if there was one story from the book, or maybe one that didn't even make the final cut, of when it got really clear for you May, in your career, of this piece about visibility and all the feelings and frustrations that can go along with this reality. 

[00:06:24] May Busch: Absolutely. You know, it's so funny, just as an aside, you've said feelings, you've said emotions, and that is truly what goes on inside each of us. And yet, having spent my 24 year career in investment banking, I don't think that those kinds of feelings and emotions are the things that we're taught should be front and center so 

[00:06:45] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: You're right, we silently hold them and we do lots of sidebar conversations with colleagues, bosses, friends, family. But you're right, we don't speak that language at work. 

[00:06:56] May Busch: That's right. It's the game face. 

[00:06:58] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yep. 

[00:06:59] May Busch: Well, the story that really stood out for me in my career was the moment where I was at my desk, it was a Friday evening, working late as usual, my boss comes to my desk and I'm in a capital markets trading floor and she says, "May, can I have a word with you?" 

[00:07:20] May Busch: She leads me to her boss's office and one look at their faces and I just knew this was not good news.

[00:07:25] May Busch: And they said, "You know, May, we put you up for promotion this year. We did our best to advocate for you. We really pushed, but you're not gonna get promoted this year".

[00:07:37] May Busch: And I was really devastated. It was the promotion to Executive Director, so it was an important one. And what happened was, when they put my name up, the other people in the room, the decision makers, the committee, didn't even know who I was. 

[00:07:54] May Busch: The reaction was basically, "May who?" and those few that did know me felt like, oh yeah, she's too junior and she can't possibly have done such a great job in just six months in this new role, so she can wait another year. 

[00:08:09] May Busch: And that was my light bulb moment where I realized that having my boss on board was great. Having her boss, my skip level boss, on board was great, but it was not enough. 

[00:08:21] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Right. 

[00:08:22] May Busch: And I needed to be no longer invisible, I needed to become visible to this broader group. And I didn't even know who the 'they' were at the time. 

[00:08:33] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Right. These are the invisible rules of organizational life and politics. 

[00:08:38] May Busch: Yep. 

[00:08:39] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I think that's a really important point. When you're just putting your head down and trying to make a contribution in your area, you don't understand the bigger network that is gonna impact your career. 

[00:08:48] May Busch: Yeah, and I think we sometimes forget how easy it is in the beginning. Of course, we're working like crazy, but in those first two to three to five years, for most of us, it is enough to keep our head down, do a great job, and things will work out more or less. 

[00:09:07] May Busch: But soon after those first few years you and I both know that it doesn't work that way anymore. It gets a lot more nuanced. Many other people have opinions and they weigh in, and you may not even have a chance to know who they are unless you really are focused on it. And that's one of the things that I do talk about in the book, which is about understanding the breadth of who your stakeholders truly are and how they're changing as you become more senior and you become a leader. 

[00:09:37] May Busch: And as you said, we as leaders also, if we want to bring our team members up, we need to help them to see what those broader groups are and help them get in front of them. 

[00:09:48] May Busch: And then we can see the mosquito bites, the little nips, and I'll just share one that happened to me a lot. It was in meetings, I might finally get up the courage to say something, and then there would just be radio silence. People would just move on, and then 10 minutes later, somebody else would make that point, and all of a sudden it was the greatest idea ever.

[00:10:12] May Busch: And then what do you do at that moment? You really feel unseen, unheard, invisible because you said something and nobody paid any attention. 

[00:10:23] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah. 

[00:10:23] May Busch: So that was my ongoing mosquito. And other people will have their own little mosquitoes, but they really add up and they dent your confidence and make you not visible. 

[00:10:33] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: How do you know which part of that is culture, like this is how this place works? 

[00:10:38] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: If you don't work for this person or you don't have this title, or if you don't have this style, then no one's gonna listen to you. So how much of that do you think we can unpack as culture versus sometimes it's within us, we don't believe deep down that we are of worth or should be heard. 

[00:10:57] May Busch: Well, as with most things is a combination of factors, but I think that we as individuals, certainly in my case, there was just a lot of work that I didn't realize I needed to do. And a leader or a manager can have a lot to do to help mentor the person or coach the person along, in this case it was me, the younger me, to get more chances to practice, to give feedback after each time that you are presenting, maybe to tee up a moment when your team member can present.

[00:11:33] May Busch: Because it just takes a lot of practice and it takes some skill as well, communication skill, which is something else that you'll have seen it in the book because I, looking back, think I made the point in a meandering way. 

[00:11:47] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Mm. 

[00:11:48] May Busch: In these busy meetings, people are busy, they're checking their emails, you really have to hook people's attention and you have to be succinct, you have to have conviction, like you said, I probably didn't have the conviction that my point was a good one. It was terrifying for me to just even say anything. So the tone of voice probably wasn't there. 

[00:12:10] May Busch: So I think the person has a lot of opportunity to grow if you realize it. And I think the manager, the leader, has a lot of opportunities to coach and mentor. 

[00:12:22] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: When I think about our role as leaders, the first is, if there's performance issues in terms of delivery, excellence, subject matter expertise,  critical thinking, that's the stuff that I, believe we know to coach on and we have a responsibility, like that's table stakes.

[00:12:41] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: If somebody on your team is not hitting it on all of those and they desire career advancement, that's where you go first. 

[00:12:48] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: As I think about this and the leaders that we work with, it often stops there. I don't know how much they're coaching on what you were just describing, the now you know your stuff. Let's now talk about the unspoken world of organizational politics and dynamics and that idea of practicing with them and giving them safe little experiments that they can do, and being able to know what to share in terms of feedback to help that person to be better versus to demotivate them, to make them feel not seen or judged for their style or their communication skills,  it gets into really sensitive territories that I think we often are a little bit scared to get into as leaders. 

[00:13:33] May Busch: Yeah, it is scary. It's scary to give feedback. You don't know how it's gonna land, right? So it's understandable, and yet to have a really strong team and to become the kind of leader that people want to work for, I think this is a really important muscle to build. This ability to give that feedback in a way that is enhancing and inspiring and motivating and positive.

[00:14:04] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: On that, Abigail, I know we have a bunch of questions and we're ready to dig in. 

[00:14:09] Abigail Charlu: Let's do it. And let's just go there directly there with this situation. The leader shared, "I wanna give honest feedback about how a team member is perceived. The issue isn't about the quality of the work, it's more about their style, presence and how they interact with others.

[00:14:32] Abigail Charlu: How can I speak truth about how the system works without making them feel exposed or at risk? 

[00:14:36] May Busch: I always think that the way you go about it depends on what the person is like. So ideally you have gotten to know your team member somewhat. There's some people who like something told right between the eyes direct and that's what they thrive on.

[00:14:54] May Busch: Other people wield to just the most simple little suggestion. So assuming that you know how to frame these kinds of things, all other things equal. 

[00:15:06] May Busch: One thing that I have found can work really well, even with somebody you don't know that well, is I like to tie it to their bigger aspirations and what that can look like or sound like is, "What are your bigger aspirations for your career? You know, where do you see yourself in the next two to three to five years?" 

[00:15:27] May Busch: And generally, people will have some kind of view, and if they don't, then you can say, "Do you wanna be a senior leader one day?", and usually people go, "Yeah, that's really what I want", or "I wanna be in the C-suite", whatever it is. 

[00:15:40] May Busch: "Great. I wanna help you do that. Now there are some thoughts I have, would you like me to share them?" 

[00:15:45] May Busch: And I always like to ask permission as well. And if you can tie it to, "Well, in order to be on the road to the C-suite or to be a senior manager, here are two or three things that people are looking for."

[00:16:00] May Busch: Then you can get into that conversation. So that's just one way that I think could be quite natural in helping them to achieve a goal that they really wanna achieve. 

[00:16:08] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah, and I think this part about knowing their style, I think if you've missed that step, go back. I don't care if you've worked with the person for years, go back. 

[00:16:16] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And you can ask them, "How do you feel when you get feedback and what have been examples in your past where it's landed really well for you and when it's been harder for you to hear".

[00:16:25] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Because some people get really defensive and they argue it or want proof and evidence and other people, they immediately go to a place of 'I'm not good enough'. And then some people, of course, have a more of a maturity of, " Yes, I wanna be better and give it to me straight and I'm good".

[00:16:41] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: But that requires a lot of self work, I think, to be able to have it land in a positive way. So I think that's a really important point. 

[00:16:48] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I think the other thing, whether they ask for it or whether it helps us to make it more tangible, is using real situations. So, "We have a meeting that we were in and this is where I could have seen an opportunity for you to have been more net. So you said the thing and then you basically kept explaining it over and over, whereas I think for next time, try to nail it in one sentence and then wait for people to ask you for more data". 

[00:17:16] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So trying to work with the real situations that are going on once you've established again, that relationship piece of, you wanna get ahead, you wanna be successful, I now know how to say it, then I think sometimes we wait for some big event to give the feedback, whereas if you do it more timely, then they might have the ability to understand and unpack with you what worked well so that they can continue to do that and what didn't go as well. 

[00:17:43] Abigail Charlu: Yeah, that's really helpful advice for the manager. This next scenario seems a little bit reminiscent of your example earlier, May. The leader asked, "My team member didn't get the high profile promotion or project this cycle. How do you decide how honest to be about timing and trajectory? I don't wanna create false hope, but I also don't want to take away motivation or confidence."

[00:18:13] May Busch: Well, I had to pause because this has happened to me!

[00:18:16] May Busch: I believe that foundational principle is I prefer to level with people. I really like the idea of, maybe you call it transparency, maybe you call it being honest with people, and finding a way to do it without totally demotivating them and deflating them, right? Or making it sound like some sinister thing is going on in the organization. Because nine times out of 10 there is not a sinister thing going on. It is just a little bit of a gray zone. 

[00:18:47] May Busch: And I used to think politics was awful, that I stank at doing it and I didn't wanna have any part of it. And then I told my parents this and my mother said, "Well, politics is just what happens when you have two or more people together". It's like a little society and she's a pediatrician and so she would see lots of children and families and just see that there are dynamics in every family.

[00:19:14] May Busch: It's the same thing. 

[00:19:15] May Busch: And so just that simple reframe helped me a lot to make it something where I could be honest and transparent about things, 'cause we're just explaining the lay of the land and how things work.

[00:19:28] May Busch: And I also appreciate it when people asked me, "Well, what is your goal? What do you want?" and then they would offer to work with me on it and establish some mile markers and check-ins, because I think when we tell people what the reality is, as much as we know it and identify yeah, there are a lot of vagaries that are going to happen, but that's why we put in some milestones and checkpoints. Then they don't feel like they're so in the wilderness on their own because we're there trying to help them, but they have to do the main part of the work and there are other mentors and so forth along the way.

[00:20:02] May Busch: So that's how I would handle it. 

[00:20:05] May Busch: There was a second time when I was up for managing director and I didn't make it the first time. My skip level boss was trying to explain to me that I wasn't gonna make MD that year. One thing he said, I really just appreciated it and I hung onto it and it carried me through until I finally did make MD and he said, "Look, May, with you, it is not a question of if. It's just a question of when". 

[00:20:32] May Busch: And that just calmed me right down.

[00:20:35] May Busch: Now that has to be true. Of course. 

[00:20:37] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Right. 

[00:20:37] May Busch: But when that is true, that phrase just made a huge amount of difference to me, and it just allowed all that cortisol and all those stress chemicals to just calm down. 

[00:20:50] May Busch: Because when we don't know, when there's uncertainty, the human brain makes things up and they're usually the worst case scenario. 

[00:20:58] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah. 

[00:20:58] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: It's interesting, that's what was coming up for me as well, was this idea of, they are gonna look for clarity from you. That's gonna be a part of the conversation. There's no way to avoid it. And so we can continue to get into what does that sound like and look like?

[00:21:11] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: But I think the other thing, back to this part about how we don't talk about feelings, so I think that even if we're uncomfortable as leaders talking about feelings, I think we can just hold space.

[00:21:23] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I think we can just maybe not speak yet and we say, "You didn't get the promotion", or "That project that you really wanted an opportunity to work on, they gave it to somebody else", or "They went in a different direction". 

[00:21:34] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And I think sometimes we just hold that space. You almost don't need to say anything else. 

[00:21:39] May Busch: Yeah. 

[00:21:40] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Or, if you need to, you could say slowly, "I wanted to see how you're feeling".

[00:21:47] May Busch: Mm.

[00:21:48] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Or "I can imagine this could be hard". And then just wait and see what's there to work with. 

[00:21:55] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I mean, sometimes they just need to talk about why they're pissed or frustrated or disappointed or embarrassed or all the things, and sometimes the most powerful thing we do as leaders is to be present and just sit with someone, virtually or in person, and just let them feel that. And to say, "I understand that this can be hard".

[00:22:16] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And it goes back to what you were saying before, May, it's like that calibrating with the person. So once I know how they're feeling, how it's landing, where they're at, then I know should we get into a problem solving type session? Or was that it? Did they just need some space? And then we'll say, "You know what? Let's get some time in a couple days or tomorrow or next week, whatever feels right, and let's talk about where we go from here and how I can help".

[00:22:43] May Busch: That is really a great way to handle it because sometimes when we as leaders are a little bit anxious about the message that we're about to give, it's not fun to tell somebody they're not getting promoted, it can cause us to try and get it all out in this one conversation. But it doesn't have to be just one conversation and maybe better that it's not right now, but over time. 

[00:23:11] Abigail Charlu: Yeah, I think that's super helpful. For this next scenario, the manager asked, "I had a team member deliver something that technically met the brief, but politically missed the mark. A key stakeholder didn't feel seen or included, and now trust is strained. As a leader, how do I help someone recover from a visibility or stakeholder misstep, especially when the lesson isn't quite obvious?" 

[00:23:40] May Busch: I can see three possible thrusts and they're not mutually exclusive. 

[00:23:45] May Busch: Number one, you can go directly at it, direct to the person. 

[00:23:49] May Busch: Number two is you could go indirect. 

[00:23:51] May Busch: And then number three is you could go beyond. 

[00:23:53] May Busch: And what I mean by each of those is, when I say go direct, it's maybe you can coach your team member to directly go back to that stakeholder and learn or understand, seek to remedy. And it may or may not be appropriate at all times, but I think of my mother, again, she has this term that I love, she grew up in China and Taiwan and has her own vocabulary. And this word that she created that I think is really apt for this is called 'confrontate'.

[00:24:28] May Busch: So confrontate does not mean confront. It means that you just deal with this situation head on and don't shrink away from it. 

[00:24:39] May Busch: So it's like you, yourself, confront the situation. You deal with it directly. 

[00:24:45] May Busch: It's not always gonna be appropriate, but I really like the idea of just talking to that person, and that helps you with lesson extraction that helps you with the beginnings of changing an impression. 

[00:24:57] May Busch: Then the indirect is to me about having other people try and speak on your behalf in different ways, either to learn what actually happened, or to, in marketing terms it would be a testimonial but rather, you say, "Well, you know, I've never experienced that from so and so. Are you sure they really meant it like that?" 

[00:25:18] May Busch: And then go beyond, to me, is sometimes we get so fixated on the particular situation that your team member just can't seem to focus on anything else. And that's when I would help my team member to go beyond that particular stakeholder and start focusing on some other stakeholders, shoring up those, strengthening those relationships and leave this one for a while.

[00:25:41] May Busch: So those are the three ways that I could think of. 

[00:25:45] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah, and I think what is so helpful about that, May, is those are a way to help people, not just with this one situation, but it's a framework for how you navigate the fact that there's always stakeholders. 

[00:25:59] May Busch: Yes.

[00:25:59] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: In one of our other episodes we talk about influence and it's reminding me of this. 

[00:26:05] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: If you don't think there are stakeholder dynamics, then you're gonna really struggle with organizational life. 

[00:26:13] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And stakeholders are your boss, your colleagues, a stakeholder, your team members are stakeholders, your clients a stakeholder. Everybody that you need to work with and get them to do things or to shift their perspective, that's stakeholder management and that's why I feel like, again, as you said, we're not sure if we need to put all three of those to play, or one or two of them, depends on the situation, but you should know that that's the playbook. 

[00:26:41] May Busch: Yes. 

[00:26:43] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I think it's so helpful to have that way of thinking about it.

[00:26:46] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And the only thing that I would add is this idea of the stakeholder didn't feel seen or included, what that means to me is you didn't give them a win. 

[00:26:58] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So they didn't feel valued for their expertise is what's coming to me. Or that they had done something well that you could have built on or leveraged or acknowledged.

[00:27:10] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: That's really the thing. It's like when things are gonna change, you have to figure out how that impacts the other people. 

[00:27:17] May Busch: Yeah. 

[00:27:17] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And the best way is to make them feel really valued for what they've done, or for their point of view, and that to me feels like the miss, is that we didn't really tap into that person's needs to feel valued. 

[00:27:32] May Busch: This is such an important point and it's easy to miss in the moment, isn't it? And I'm thinking about how my father, who is a quite prominent research scientist in his field of biomedical engineering, and I have been as his daughter attending a lot of these take your daughter to workday kind of things, and he'd have his lab over and every time he got up to make a speech, I just remember this long list of people that he would thank. "Emily who did this, and Abby who did that". And he would just go on and I'm going, how does this man remember all these things? 

[00:28:07] May Busch: But now that you say this, I think that was his way of making sure each stakeholder felt like they were seen, heard, and valued. So it could be as simple as that. 

[00:28:18] May Busch: But if he had missed somebody, then that person would certainly have felt left out. 

[00:28:23] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: That's right. And then I think it goes back to what you were saying too, May, about we're gonna make missteps or mistakes along the way. It's part of being human and it's about having some grace with yourself, with your team member. If you had said, "Hey, I think you should reach out to these five people and make sure they're on board before this decision is being made", it's the, "Hey, remember we had talked about this?" so you can give feedback on it. 

[00:28:47] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: But also that people make mistakes and they're imperfect. And I think that we're always holding those two truths. There can be a better way, and then there's things that happen along the way that are not perfect. And what I really dislike about what I think is happening more and more in society and then reflected in organizations is people being really punitive with one another, like really unforgiving when people do make a mistake, either knowingly or unknowingly. 

[00:29:13] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: That doesn't feel like it creates the conditions where people can try to do better and can reflect on a miss because it becomes unsafe and it creates a lot of fear. 

[00:29:27] May Busch: Yes, and that fear just changes the whole dynamic, doesn't it? Everybody hunkers down instead of open up and co-creating and collaborating with each other. 

[00:29:37] May Busch: Before we get off of this particular topic, I was also just thinking as the manager of this person who had made this faux pa, I really also like the idea of framing it as an opportunity, because we all know that when every relationship is gonna have some friction, nothing ever goes completely smoothly.

[00:29:58] May Busch: And oftentimes the way you handle those challenges and those frictions in a relationship can strengthen, and it's a chance to show that you do actually care and that you have integrity to admit you are wrong, or whatever the specifics of the situation might be. 

[00:30:16] May Busch: So that's another thing I think as a leader you can do to help your person in your team. 

[00:30:20] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah, that really resonates. 

[00:30:22] Abigail Charlu: For our last scenario, the manager shared, "I'm guiding someone on my team who is very talented and is very frustrated with what they perceive as too slow of a promotion and pay progression. I worry that they're not able to enjoy the work and learning and the learning that comes from it because they're so focused on status, like titles. Don't get me wrong, those things are important. They matter to me as well, but I want them to also appreciate the work and the challenges they get to work on".

[00:30:55] May Busch: I have a feeling this is happening more and more, and I wonder if this is a generational concept. 

[00:31:00] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: That's exactly where my mind went, too. 

[00:31:02] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: What you could show for your worth because the world of social has become increasingly prevalent and I think hard for managers to handle. 

[00:31:12] May Busch: Yeah, one thing that comes to mind is to see if there's some way that it's possible to explore those other definitions of success and look at what else matters to them, and to also lengthen their horizon. 

[00:31:30] May Busch: One of the things that I've come to realize in all my reading is that we're all gonna be working for a whole lot longer than anybody thought we were. And people are going to live to be a hundred, the people who are born today, or more. And so you're gonna be working for 70 years. So a bit of this perspective taking, I wonder if that's possible. 

[00:31:54] May Busch: And then there might be some sharing some stories about people's career paths, who now are seen as very successful and how they had maybe setbacks and how they recovered from them, or how things went a little bit more slowly.

[00:32:09] May Busch: So those are just some things that come to my mind. But Emily, I'd be curious what you see. 

[00:32:13] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah. I love that. We see people or we see organizations when they're successful, but we don't always see the journey that it took to get there. I think that's a really important insight. 

[00:32:24] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And I think that you have to know what the reality is. This is a reality, as you said, that is becoming more and more prevalent and so if that's a certification, a special award, a special recognition, I think it's okay to build that in to the culture so that people do get to feel more shorter term wins along the way because that is like that dopamine hit that they're used to, and I feel like sometimes we're not direct enough about our observation.

[00:32:55] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So the thing that was coming to mind for me with this scenario for the leader is, I would say to the person on my team, "I really understand that you are feeling frustrated about the promotion or not seeing the comp increase at the speed that you are hoping to". It makes me worry sometimes though, that I would literally say this, "Are you enjoying the work? What part of this work is giving you satisfaction, is feeling challenging in good ways, and is there more that I can do for you to feel excited and energized about what we're doing? And not that I'm saying that the rewards don't matter, but I wanna make sure you're happy". 

[00:33:37] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Are you liking the job? 

[00:33:38] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And then I think by default, by the way you ask it, with that real care and interest, the hope I have is that for the person it shifts something in their brain that says, "Oh wow, my boss is worrying that I don't like the job". Or, "Wait, am I losing sight of the day-to-day journey that I'm on, that is to make a contribution and to learn and to be challenged, and to think critically, and to create and learn?" 

[00:34:09] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I think that they may not always acknowledge that reflection, but that's what you're trying to trigger as a response. 

[00:34:17] May Busch: Yeah, that's beautiful. This goes back to the earlier part of our conversation where we were all talking about the importance of knowing your team members. And what really makes them tick. And if in all that process there were some examples that they gave of things that they found meaningful in their prior years, then that could be drawn into the script that you just gave really nicely, Emily.

[00:34:45] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And I think it's helping people to tap into being present. What is here that makes you feel good, that makes you feel of worth, that we can do practically around the work that makes you feel even more valued, because those are acknowledgements of, I wanna be valued.

[00:35:03] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And again, it doesn't address the social piece of, I can go out there on social or to my network and family and say, "Hey look, I got a major pay increase or I got a promotion".

[00:35:17] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: It doesn't give you bragging rights. Maybe that's too narrow of a definition of what gives you bragging rights, is "I'm learning so much", or "I'm working on this really interesting client project", because that helps them to, as you said, May, like zoom out and see the length of a career as, if that's all it's gonna be about, you're gonna run outta pay and promotion within your first decade of work and then what's left, right? 

[00:35:43] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: You see what happened to professional athletes, you've worked so hard to achieve a status that then is done before you turn 30 and you have to reinvent yourself.

[00:35:51] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I think that mindset you're always looking to grow, I think it's a life hack. 

[00:35:56] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I am now gonna turn it back to you, May, for our last question. 

[00:36:01] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I'm gonna zoom out for you, because you can bring in anything that you want, it can be about this topic of visibility and navigating careers or anything else that comes to mind, but when you think about your career, what was one of the things that was a great lesson for you from a leadership and people management challenge perspective, where you really had to pivot?

[00:36:23] May Busch: Well, I tell you, the biggest people management lesson I had to learn was very painful. It cost me in reputation. I was leading a fairly decent sized team and we were coming to a series of layoffs and our group was not gonna be untouched and there was gonna need to be one person for my team that would need to be part of this reduction in force.

[00:36:49] May Busch: And this was my first experience with something like this. It was so hard for me, at first it was denial, and a person on my team was suggested to me. And I said, "No.  This is such a good person. He's a solid citizen". 

[00:37:05] May Busch: In the end, I had to let him go. 

[00:37:09] May Busch: But not before I had burned through a lot of my own credibility because this person was truly just a solid citizen, they were not a super high potential. They were doing a great job, but that was about it and I was trying to paint him as something else, so that was not a good move.

[00:37:28] May Busch: And then when I went to tell his previous number two that this number two was now gonna need to step up or get to step up, this number two said to me, "Wow. You know, May, I was about to come and resign tomorrow morning because I got this same job at another bank. But now that I have it here, I'm gonna stay".

[00:37:53] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Oh my goodness. 

[00:37:54] May Busch: I'll never forget that. 

[00:37:55] May Busch: And this number two guy was much more junior, but he was a superstar. 

[00:38:02] May Busch: So that was my big lesson and what that taught me is you can't fall in love with your team, as much as you're wanting to support your team, and you need to be realistic about what talents and strengths and skills and the composition of the team.

[00:38:21] May Busch: And so there were two pieces of that. One is to just be honest and fair so that you retain your own credibility. And you never wanna throw your team members under the bus. 

[00:38:32] May Busch: And then number two is if you have to let someone go, you wanna just decide, do this as kindly and as graciously as you can, because you never know, you might be creating a bigger problem. 

[00:38:48] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah, I think it's like we don't always understand the consequences of keeping people. 

[00:38:54] May Busch: Yes. 

[00:38:54] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: In this case, sometimes we have people who block the visibility of others who deserve more and are ready for more and will make a larger contribution. And I agree with you, like when I was thinking about my hardest ones, it's definitely related to organizational structure change and when the organization is outgrowing someone, it's really, really tough because it doesn't mean that they're not a good person and a smart person and a hardworking person. It just means that the needs are changing and it's so admirable for us as leaders to protect our team and to have that loyalty to them, but sometimes it's bigger than us in terms of what the organization really needs. 

[00:39:30] May Busch: Yes. And the happy ending to the story is that this person that we had to let go ended up being very successful in a different organization. So in a way, maybe it was a win for him, even though in the near term it was not happy for him, and certainly painful, but it turned out to be okay. 

[00:39:51] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I see that more than not, that what's on the other side for people is better. ' Cause sometimes it's like, the fits off.

[00:39:59] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Thank you so much for being here to help leaders to navigate this with their teams and their own careers, and so excited for people to benefit from learning from you, your wisdom, your book, your teachings in the world.

[00:40:15] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So thank you for all you're doing.

[00:40:17] May Busch: You are welcome and thank you for all you're doing as well and it's been joyful to chat with you and Abby and I hope that the book can help leaders and their teams alike. 

[00:40:29] May Busch: I'd love to hear how it does. 

[00:40:30] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: No doubt that it will. 

[00:40:36] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: As I reflect on the episode, a few things that I'm taking away from it for us as leaders is that the more we understand about our people, how they like to get feedback, what their career aspirations are, the more it makes it comfortable for us and for them to have these feedback conversations. Talking to people, not just about their actual work, but about how they come across and how they're impacting other people and what the stakeholder dynamics are, can feel really sensitive and get mixed up in people's emotions and identity and self-confidence so that contracting to make sure that they know why they care about the feedback in terms of where they wanna take their career, and knowing that we have permission to give it helps so much to be able to support our team members.

[00:41:22] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: The second point I'm taking away is that the hard part that we all face, ourselves as leaders, and when we're coaching our teams, is we reach a point where our performance no longer matters. It's about who knows us and how we communicate and deliver messages and our knowledge that is about brevity and conviction and asking curious questions managing stakeholders, and that becomes what helps get you to that next level.

[00:41:52] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Your work becomes a given. 

[00:41:54] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: The third is really about this piece around stakeholder dynamics. It needs to be more than just what your boss and even your boss's boss thinks of you. We have to help our team members to understand that there's a whole landscape of stakeholders and decision makers who are going to impact our and our team's careers, and we have to be strategic about how we engage them and create interactions that are both of worth in terms of getting the work done, but are also of value to helping people to get seen and eventually achieve their career goals.

[00:42:26] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: The other thing is when people are frustrated by the pace at which their career is growing, there needs to be difficult messages that we deliver where someone doesn't get the promotion, or the pay increase, or the client that they had hoped to work on, or the project.

[00:42:43] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Sometimes it's not about what we say, it's about what we don't say. And one of the things that we do first is to say, "Hey, I know you were hoping you know to get that promotion or that project, and unfortunately it's not gonna happen this go around". 

[00:42:57] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And then just don't say anything else. Hold space. Just be present with them.

[00:43:01] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Let them have their feelings. Let them know that just by your ability to sit with them in that moment that you care before you start getting into what they're gonna ultimately want, which is some clarity on what. they did wrong or what they could do differently, but hold the space first. 

[00:43:14] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And then last but not least, there's a fine line that we have to hold as leaders about advocating for people so that they know we support them and that we care about them, but also knowing that sometimes when you advocate too hard at the wrong time, when they may not be ready or the conditions with the stakeholders is not right, it can undermine your credibility as well. While it is our role to help our team members to achieve their career goals and gain that visibility to get ahead in their careers, there is a boundary of where our credibility is also on the line, so know that there's times where even if it's gonna disappoint the people on your team, you have to also be honest about the conditions around you, the stakeholder dynamics, their true readiness relative to other people, and not push so hard that it undermines your ability to advocate for them and others in the future. 

[00:44:02] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: On Let's Talk, People, what we love to do most is help you unpack your toughest people management challenges. So send them in. Send in the situations you're struggling with, the questions that you have about leading your teams, and we will anonymize them and give you answers and our advice on an upcoming episode.

[00:44:32] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: You can write in an email or attach a little audio message with your scenario to abigail@arosegroup.com That's Abigail, A-B-I-G-A-I-L at arose group A-R-O-S-E-G-R-O-U-P.com 

[00:44:52] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Thanks for joining today's episode of Let's Talk, People. For more info and insights, visit arosegroup.com and find me, Emily Frieze-Kemeny, on LinkedIn and Instagram. If you're enjoying the show, please follow, share on social and leave a rating or review in your podcast app- it helps other listeners to discover us.

[00:45:12] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Well, that's a wrap, friends. Until next time when we come together to talk people.