Let's Talk, People: Episode 37

YOUR OLD PLAYBOOK WON'T WORK HERE

WHY LEADERS NEED TO BUILD TRUST, NOT RELY ON WHAT WORKED BEFORE

[00:00:00] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Hi, I'm Emily Frieze-Kemeny, host of Let's Talk, People, where leaders come to bridge humanity and profitability. Informed by a couple decades of work as a Head of Talent and Leadership Development, I'm here to amplify leaders so they can exalt everyone and everything they touch. Are you ready? 'Cause it's about to get real.

[00:00:28] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Let's talk, people.

[00:00:36] Emily Frieze-Kemeny:  If you, like me, are here because of your passion for talking leadership and growing your impact and those around you, I want to invite you to check out our new leadership model, Pivot Player. Pivot Player is informed by our research working with thousands of global leaders over the last two decades.

[00:00:53] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: You can learn more about Pivot Player by heading to PivotPlayer.com, where you can also take our free leadership survey and find out which leadership suit or suits you've likely been wearing. Okay. Let's get into the episode.

[00:01:08] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I'm so excited to have Oneeka Botu on Let's Talk, People. Oneeka is the Senior HR Leader for Retail Leadership and Team Development at Valentino, which is a globally recognized luxury brand with a retail footprint spanning North America and worldwide markets with more than 1 billion in annual revenue. 

[00:01:30] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: In her role, Oneeka partners with retail leaders across the US, Canada, and Mexico to support them in leadership transitions and to accelerate them and their team's performance. 

[00:01:41] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: With over 20 years of experience, Oneeka has worked in luxury brands and retailers from Sax Fifth Avenue to Yves Saint Laurent, Avon, Bvlgari, and La Perla where she held leadership roles in marketing and sales training and development. Oneeka has a passion, which is why we brought her on for this topic, for new leader assimilation, helping leaders to navigate new roles, new organizations, new leadership levels by building credibility, understanding team dynamics, and accelerating impact.

[00:02:14] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I'm excited to jump into it with you.

[00:02:20] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Oneeka, I'm so excited to have you on Let's Talk, People.

[00:02:23] Oneeka Botu: It's such an amazing pleasure to be here.

[00:02:26] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Well, I know you have many passions, but I know one of them is this topic about new leader assimilation and I love bringing people on where the topic aligns to a personal and professional passion for them. So I have no doubt it's gonna be an amazing conversation.

[00:02:42] Oneeka Botu: Super excited!

[00:02:43] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So I feel that in terms of big noise about what you do as a new leader or a promoted leader, there hasn't been a lot, very new, I've seen on this topic in many years. When I really honed in, in my career in the senior executive development and organizational development space many, many moons ago, it was all about the first 90 days. And I'm like, I don't think we've talked about anything since then! 

[00:03:12] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So I'm excited to bring some new thinking, 'cause the world's changed, a lot. 

[00:03:18] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: It's not that I think it was ever easy to make these types of transitions because something changes in how you see yourself and how other people see you. You have to step into your power in new ways. It could mean that the stress increases, either stress that you feel just because of the newness of it, or stress because it really is associated with moving into a new environment or being promoted to a new level. 

[00:03:43] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And expectations do change and I find that it's not often that all of those expectations are explicitly stated. I think a lot of the challenges that we have are because you kind of know what you want your newly promoted or newly hired leader to do when you put them in a role, but that doesn't mean you always explicitly have that conversation.

[00:04:04] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So that was some of the stuff that I know inspired us to say how do we help make this experience better, both for the leader as well as for their team, and maybe even for their boss too. 

[00:04:14] Oneeka Botu: You are absolutely right. For, I would say, the past two decades, I've been in a variety of roles, working with retail leaders, whether it's as a commercial leader, a training and development leader and now as a people leader, and the one thing that I will say is that no playbook works the same twice.

[00:04:40] Oneeka Botu: And I think that's the gap that new leaders sometimes experience is, you walk into a new high level role and you're like, oh, been there, done that. Right? And you pull out the playbook only to find, or maybe you don't find, some leaders don't realize that the playbook isn't working. 

[00:05:01] Oneeka Botu: So that's why I'm super excited that we're tapping into this whole conversation about new leader assimilation.

[00:05:10] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: This is not always the case, but I find more often than not that some of the things that we have a passion to do in the world tie back to experiences we've had ourselves. 

[00:05:22] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So is there a memory that feels like that moment in time where you had to personally experience being that new leader, whether it was a promotion, or a job change, or a company change, that is the inspiration behind your passion for helping other leaders on this topic?

[00:05:41] Oneeka Botu: So many stories to tell, but when I started my career at Bvlgari, many years ago, I joined to lead the marketing team. And, that was predominantly my experience prior to joining, designing programs and strategies and really about driving results through execution. I was fortunate enough to have two careers during my time at Bvlgari, so moving from leading the marketing team to then heading up training and development. Well, I thought I was successful in my role as a marketer and was given this amazing opportunity to work with our retail population in a different scope.

[00:06:32] Oneeka Botu: Same company, same team, I got this covered. 

[00:06:36] Oneeka Botu: Well, I didn't have it covered as well as I would like to think. And what I had to learn is that the playbook that made me successful as a leader in my marketing role was not the same playbook that I was able to pull back out and dust off in a role that was very focused on people.

[00:06:57] Oneeka Botu: When you're leading training and development, it's more about influence, right? And so for me, that was an avenue that I had not walked down. 

[00:07:11] Oneeka Botu: And so having to understand what does it mean, being in a position where it's about helping leaders be leaders to their teams. And so doing that required me stepping into a space of influence.

[00:07:30] Oneeka Botu: How can I influence, instead of direct, leaders to be successful? 

[00:07:36] Oneeka Botu: And so I think that for me, in my career was the biggest aha moment, the biggest transition, the biggest assimilation that I had to take.

[00:07:46] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: How did you learn it? Was it just noticing how people were responding to you? Did people give you feedback? 

[00:07:53] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I always find it interesting when we have that pivot to say like, "Ooh, I wonder if I need to do this differently". 

[00:08:01] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Do you remember when that happened? 

[00:08:03] Oneeka Botu: Well, I realized it was different earlier than later, which was a good thing. But also just feedback from my VP of Sales, my Regional Directors. It was an awareness, right? Because the awareness doesn't always come from self, sometimes the awareness comes to you externally.

[00:08:26] Oneeka Botu: And I think that's also part of being a leader that is open to assimilating is receiving feedback. 

[00:08:34] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah. 

[00:08:35] Oneeka Botu: And so for me it was having to realize that my success depended less on what I knew and more on how I was able to influence others. And so that was a big transition. 

[00:08:51] Oneeka Botu: But to answer your question, it was a combination of me saying, "Okay, why isn't this clicking?" and having amazing leaders within the organization that said, "Listen, maybe you should look at it this way", or "You should consider this" and you're no longer developing strategies and programs, but it's about training and development, which is a very different path.

[00:09:13] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah, I think this is such an important thing to name, which is we think, okay, they just hired or promoted me because they're expecting me to know what to do, and it may not feel like the most natural action to ask for feedback. 

[00:09:30] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: "What do you need from me?", "How do you think I'm doing?", "How did that meeting go?", "Is there a different approach that usually works with this team?" 

[00:09:37] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I almost feel like there could be some fear or shame in asking those questions, but you're absolutely right, Oneeka, that's the only way you can calibrate how to tailor that assimilation to that specific team, role, function and circumstance.

[00:09:56] Oneeka Botu: Exactly. 

[00:09:57] Oneeka Botu: And it's also about being in the right circle, having the right tribe around you, because it isn't always that you have the courage to ask, but having someone else have the courage to give the feedback. 

[00:10:13] Oneeka Botu: And so in my case, that really helped me to understand that leadership transitioning, it doesn't get easier because of your experience, right? It's very much about change, it's about intentional assimilation. 

[00:10:30] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Bringing that consciousness to it and intentionality. Yeah, so true. 

[00:10:34] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So we have some really good questions on this topic that have come in, so Abigail, I'm gonna turn it to you.

[00:10:40] Abigail Charlu: It's funny you already talked about wanting a playbook for operating. 

[00:10:43] Abigail Charlu: This first question, the leader asked, "I've just stepped into a new leadership role and I feel like I need a playbook for how to operate. I've used Michael Watson's The First 90 Days, but the book was published over 20 years ago. 

[00:10:58] Abigail Charlu: What other things should I do as a new leader today to set myself and my team up for success?"

[00:11:04] Oneeka Botu: What a great book. Even though it was written over 20 years ago, it's still incredibly relevant today. 

[00:11:12] Oneeka Botu: But going back to what Emily and I were talking about earlier, is this idea that because you were hired to lead a team that you know how to lead, but those frameworks really need to be restructured, right? It depends on the position, it depends on the culture of the company, it depends on the team that you are inheriting and this applies to whether you are being promoted internally or you are stepping into a position at a new organization, I truly believe the challenge is no playbook works the same way twice, right?

[00:11:49] Oneeka Botu: Because no two teams are cookie cutter. 

[00:11:52] Oneeka Botu: And so I think what's missing today in the form of support for new leaders is the ability to adapt. New leaders need space to understand their people.

[00:12:06] Oneeka Botu: I'm a big believer in the importance and the value of building those authentic relationships and then learning how influence works in that new environment that you're in. Because without that, I find that new leaders just default to what worked before.

[00:12:29] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: That's right.

[00:12:30] Oneeka Botu: And often that's where they get stuck, right?

[00:12:33] Oneeka Botu: Because then they don't understand how to move forward. They can't go backwards. Left and right isn't working, because they haven't given themself the opportunity, or the okay, to say, "You know what? I need time to assimilate. This is an opportunity for me to step back and really try to understand, what is this new environment?

[00:13:00] Oneeka Botu: Who needs new people and how do I adapt so that I can not only lead, but I can accelerate the results that I was hired to deliver".

[00:13:12] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah, I totally agree. I think the thing that is coming to me as I listen to you, there's an iterative nature to how we co-create it. People like to have a checklist, "Tell me what to do", and so the tell me what to do as I listen to you is we start with relationships. 

[00:13:30] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And relationships are about self-disclosing what you're like, what has shaped you, what your leadership journey has been, what you believe you can bring and what you're here to learn. 

[00:13:42] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: You would say "I'm here to learn how this team works, what your preferences are, what are some of the stakeholder and political dynamics that I need to be sensitive to?

[00:13:52] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: What is urgently happening right now that I either can't mess up or I need to help get done while I'm coming in and learning?" 

[00:14:01] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I do think there is a need to over-index on listening and learning and reflecting that back, but then sometimes you do need to get some wins on the board to build credibility either with your colleagues or your leadership or your team.

[00:14:15] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: But that's the kind of thing you're only gonna know through that dialogue. 

[00:14:19] Oneeka Botu: Right. 

[00:14:19] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: The actual content of what you're doing when you first assimilate has to be a co-creation with your boss, your colleagues and your team, because otherwise you're gonna make lots of assumptions. As you were saying, Oneeka, based on your old way of operating may not fit into this new system.

[00:14:40] Oneeka Botu: Absolutely. When I facilitate new leader assimilation sessions, for me it's almost like this very elevated icebreaker.

[00:14:50] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah. 

[00:14:50] Oneeka Botu: Because at the end of the day, it's the team getting to know their new leader and the new leader getting to know their team. 

[00:14:59] Oneeka Botu: But what's also fascinating is that teams that have worked together for a very long time also get to know each other.

[00:15:11] Oneeka Botu: So there's a discovery, there's authentic relationships being built, and then that's when the influence starts to happen, because unfortunately, good or bad, corporate America likes to put execution first. 

[00:15:29] Oneeka Botu: I believe its relationship, its influence, and then execution. And not to scare any CEOs listening to this podcast, but it doesn't mean that it takes months or years for results to happen.

[00:15:46] Oneeka Botu: Those small wins, you step into a new position, you understand the landscape of your new company, your team, your colleagues, the stakeholders, and yes, you can have that small win your first week, your first 30 days, but it doesn't mean that you ignore or you rush the assimilation process, which is so critical.

[00:16:11] Oneeka Botu: It's the foundation for building a successful team that doesn't get stuck. 

[00:16:17] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: You're going slow to go fast. So being present with people, building the relationships, having those authentic conversations or having even just as you said, little moments of connection allows you to feel like you know each other. So when you then urgently need something, or something doesn't go well, or you have to have a more difficult brainstorm or decision making meeting, there's a little bit of understanding of one another that is there as a foundation and it allows you to say things more directly, ask harder questions, name things that maybe you'd be more hesitant to if you didn't have that foundation of a relationship.

[00:16:52] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Then, the goal is to get to the action plan. 

[00:16:55] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: The action plan has to be informed by the listening tour as well as "Do I have the right people?", 'cause I have to match the people to the action plan. 

[00:17:04] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: The things I would just add as we're building this playbook is I always manage up and I advise others to do the same.

[00:17:12] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I would ask my boss, " I know I'm coming in and there's a lot going on right now in the organization. What are the things that you want me to actually jump in and observe, versus, you want me to jump in and start making decisions or starting to bring my perspective to". 

[00:17:30] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: That is gonna be important to not wait on, like, I would really be specific with that. 

[00:17:35] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And then the other piece, I think about what is different about how AI helps a new leader who's assimilating versus not having it in the past at our fingertips.

[00:17:45] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: When people start in a new role, and we coach a lot of leaders who are making these leadership transitions, they're exhausted. And it's a strange thing, because they're never gonna have as little work or as few meetings as when you are in a new role. 

[00:17:59] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: You have to be so on, so conscious of being present and deep listening and there's new names, new acronyms, new people, new dynamics. The focus you need actually is exhausting, as well as you are gathering a lot of information. 

[00:18:18] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So one of the things that was coming to me in terms of where you should fit AI in your new leader playbook is start to dump that into AI. 

[00:18:27] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Again, ideally your company has one that is supported, and if not, you have to figure out what the rules are. But again, I think this is where AI can start to organize and synthesize what you are taking in, so you're not so fearful of "How am I gonna process all of this and even where to store it so that I can easily reference it as I continue to build on this initial knowledge I'm gaining".

[00:18:53] Oneeka Botu: So I have twin boys that are in college and speaking about AI, the guidance that I gave them, I'm like, "Listen, when you get your syllabus, dump it into AI and have it log all of your classes, exams, papers, quizzes, everything".

[00:19:14] Oneeka Botu: So it applies even if you're not a college student, right? 

[00:19:17] Oneeka Botu: So much information, there's so many meetings and introductions from multiple departments that you are being bombarded with as a new leader. 

[00:19:29] Oneeka Botu: So of course you are exhausted, maybe not physically, but you're definitely mentally, exhausted.

[00:19:35] Abigail Charlu: So much there, thank you both for unpacking and giving us such a thorough, detailed, playbook to at least guide how a leader transitions. 

[00:19:45] Abigail Charlu: Diving further into this topic, we can explore a little bit more of how to balance those things.

[00:19:53] Abigail Charlu: A leader shared, "I'm new to the organization and still learning the culture, but I'm expected to make decisions fast. There seem to be a lot of informal dynamics that I don't quite understand yet. I fear that if I take too much time to listen and learn, I'll be seen as indecisive and ineffective. 

[00:20:14] Abigail Charlu: Am I putting too much pressure on myself to prove myself? How do I navigate these types of dynamics in what I should do and when?" 

[00:20:23] Oneeka Botu: The pressure’s real, right? 

[00:20:25] Oneeka Botu: But the good news is that the pressure usually comes from a new leader's internal belief that you have to prove yourself immediately.

[00:20:39] Oneeka Botu: That's a lot of pressure. When you don't know the name of the IT guy to make sure your computer is set up correctly, that is a lot of pressure. 

[00:20:49] Oneeka Botu: What I've learned in my career, sometimes the hard way, is that you're rushing to execute before you really understand your people, the team, your colleagues. It really does slow progress. You think you are putting yourself at an advantage and you're not.

[00:21:13] Oneeka Botu: It's so important that you give yourself, I will say the grace, to know that out of everyone that was interviewed for this position, I was the one that was hired. And there are reasons why I was selected, and you have to, during those initial stages, remind yourself of what you bring to the table, what successes you've had in the past, what relationships you have built and nurtured and whom you've mentored and seen go on to achieve success in their individual careers.

[00:21:59] Oneeka Botu: It's so important that we step back, because the pressure is real, but the pressure is more from ourselves than it is from our new external environment.

[00:22:11] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I totally agree. You do have to make decisions. They might be small decisions, but that piece, I don't wanna be seen as indecisive, I think we underestimate how much we're never alone. 

[00:22:23] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: You are never alone as a leader. You have all these people with subject matter expertise and history at the organization and insights into the customer, the client, whatever it may be, knowing how your leadership thinks. You have a sea of people who can help you. 

[00:22:39] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: You still have to make the call. That is part of leadership is making a decision at times. It can't all be consensus driven or delegated, but I think that when you remember that your strength is your ability to tap into and be connected to that community, it's the way that we see power, we call it Pivot Power, the first step of Pivot Power is to get connected. 

[00:23:02] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And I don't want people to forget that when you're in this new role is even though you're new, or you're new and positionality, you have all these people there with expertise and you're making them feel good about themselves and their value by asking them for their opinion or asking them for data that you need.

[00:23:21] Oneeka Botu: For me, the worst part about starting a new position in a new company is that I am normally a very confident person, I become this very insecure person. 

[00:23:35] Oneeka Botu: And it comes from having to ask for help, right? 

[00:23:40] Oneeka Botu: And its exactly what you say, but you also need to give yourself permission.

[00:23:45] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah. 

[00:23:46] Oneeka Botu: I hate asking for help. I'm just gonna be transparent. But more than that, I hate feeling that I'm a bother.

[00:23:54] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Right. And so I think so many of us have this, that's what kind of makes us successful, is we act like owners, we are accountable, we like to help other people. Also, I think it's likely why many of us end up in these internal or external client service type roles, but you know, what I always think about is, if I came to you Oneeka and I said, "Oneeka, I really need help on this", that actually makes you feel good! 

[00:24:18] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: It doesn't make me look weak, it makes you feel good. 

[00:24:21] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So we have to just remember that it's the same thing that we're doing.

[00:24:25] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: We're not taking, we're giving, because we're making somebody feel of worth.

[00:24:30] Oneeka Botu: Correct. 

[00:24:30] Oneeka Botu: But listen, it's a hard seat to sit in.

[00:24:35] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: It is. That's why we talk about this because we do hold back and it makes us feel more pressure and it isolates leaders and that's what causes power to show up in ways that maybe isn't working as well as it could.

[00:24:50] Oneeka Botu: Exactly. Fully agree.

[00:24:52] Abigail Charlu: Thank you for your vulnerability to share that, that ask for help, as Emily was saying, is one of the key tenets of Pivot Power, getting connected. 

[00:25:01] Abigail Charlu: Then we can move to get perspective, get options to make that bite-sized decision or Pivot Play.

[00:25:08] Abigail Charlu: So I love all of this. 

[00:25:10] Abigail Charlu: Our next situation, the leader shared, "I was promoted internally and now I'm leading people who used to be my peers. I don't wanna change the dynamics and how I interact with them but I now feel the need to show up differently and still somehow show up authentically in the relationship.

[00:25:29] Abigail Charlu: What needs to shift as I move into leadership?"

[00:25:32] Oneeka Botu: Oh, this is I think one of the most emotionally complex transitions that is rarely addressed, right? 

[00:25:43] Oneeka Botu: Leaders often try to preserve these relationships, even as they're changing roles. They want to present that nothing is changing.

[00:25:57] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yep.

[00:25:58] Oneeka Botu: But that's not the reality.

[00:26:00] Oneeka Botu: The reality is you are now the people leader for your peers and the most important understanding is clarity, and it's very much about redefining the relationships, and then I will throw in trust as well, right? 

[00:26:23] Oneeka Botu: When you're now the leader of your peers, I don't believe that creating distance to now say, "I'm your boss", is the best road to take. 

[00:26:34] Oneeka Botu: It's the most common road that people take. It's like, you know what? We can't have coffee together anymore. We can't have lunch together anymore. We can't talk about what someone wore anymore.

[00:26:47] Oneeka Botu: So there's this distance that they try to create. But I think more than dissonance, there needs to be honesty and clarity about what is my new role and our new relationship and also what accountability now looks like. 

[00:27:06] Oneeka Botu: Before, we were peers, but now I need to hold you accountable for delivering at your best, I expect you to be your best and do your best at all times. And also, you know, one of my favorite words is collaboration. What does collaboration look like now? Because it's very different when you're collaborating with your peer versus when you're collaborating with your people leader, or key stakeholders in an organization.

[00:27:36] Oneeka Botu: But the worst thing that you can do is avoid the conversation. 

[00:27:42] Oneeka Botu: And that's why, for me, it's about clarity, it's about redefining that relationship and it's about building trust.

[00:27:50] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I totally agree and let me just build on it. I think the longer you wait before you say, "As your manager, I wanna talk to you about my leadership style and how I like to work together. I wanna hear what you appreciate in terms of how you like to receive feedback, how you like to be managed, what have been some of your good and harder experiences". 

[00:28:14] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: The sooner you start using that language as your manager, the more awkward it is. It's like you have to put it out there in the open that our relationship just changed, and it also signals to your colleagues, I am stepping into my power. That doesn't mean you don't know me anymore, as I love your point, Oneeka, it doesn't mean I'm gonna go somewhere and disappear behind some closed doors, but you do have to start using that language or people are not gonna take you seriously.

[00:28:46] Oneeka Botu: Yes. We talked about the first 90 days, but it's the same thing, right? 

[00:28:50] Oneeka Botu: What is that initial conversation? What is that induction that you have? And I think that it would be important to almost do a reintroduction when you are stepping from the role of peer to the role of people leader, because there's a lot of assumptions that can be made. And we know when assumptions are made, then that's when mistakes happen, that is where there's a lack of alignment with expectations. And so we want to avoid all of those potential hurdles as much as we can.

[00:29:29] Oneeka Botu: So, yeah, you are promoted, the team is informed. I would treat it the same as stepping into a new company. 

[00:29:37] Oneeka Botu: Let's have a one-to-one chat. Let's go out for coffee, so that we can get to know each other, what leadership style allows you to be your best, to show up, committed to contributing to the success and the results of the team. 

[00:29:55] Oneeka Botu: You don't always know that when you are a peer because you're not having that conversation. So it's extremely important that from day one the conversation is had.

[00:30:07] Oneeka Botu: What are some of the things that you appreciated about our former boss? What were some of the things that you wish he or she could have done differently?

[00:30:18] Oneeka Botu: So the dialogue must happen and it must happen as quickly as possible.

[00:30:25] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I agree with you, and I think sometimes what's there, and either is named or not named, is someone feels badly that they didn't get the promotion, even if they didn't think they were ready or deserved it, there's still a little bit of shame because it means that somebody had been at my level and they now have advanced, which means I haven't.

[00:30:46] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So I think this idea of taking a career interest in your colleague who now is your direct report is huge. 

[00:30:53] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I remember a time where I was coaching a leader who got promoted over their peers and it strengthened the relationship because it was the first time those now direct reports felt seen. 

[00:31:07] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: The leader reshaped their roles, promoted a couple of them, and it's like, I know what your strength is and your passion is, let's optimize that.

[00:31:17] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Or, let's say you didn't have the advantage of really knowing it, 'cause as you said, you weren't having those types of conversations with your colleagues, then you could say, "This gives us an opportunity to do a reset around what really matters to you and your career, and my role now as your manager is to support you in achieving that and to give you the feedback that you need, both supportive and growth oriented, to help you to be successful", so they see that you're gonna be helpful to them.

[00:31:44] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: The other thing that was coming to me too, is there's something I think to be said of the advantage of us having this history of having worked together, means that you, hopefully, already are comfortable sharing honest feedback with me, like observations, frustrations. I know it's different because I'm now your manager and I don't wanna pretend that that doesn't change things, but please know that one of the things that I value the most is that we know each other well enough that I wanna hear the truth and the fear I have in becoming a leader is that people are gonna filter information to me.

[00:32:21] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So please know that the candor still really matters and I'm gonna be super respectful in terms of what I do with that. 

[00:32:28] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So that's another way of maybe honoring the history. 

[00:32:31] Oneeka Botu: Yeah. It's a trust factor, right? 

[00:32:34] Oneeka Botu: To add to what you just said, what's also important is, your now direct report don't feel that the conversations that you've had as peers, where you may have complained about the organization, or you may have complained about a senior leader, is not going to be an issue, right?

[00:32:56] Oneeka Botu: So that is why that trust needs to be present. And the only way to ensure that that happens is through those initial conversations. 

[00:33:06] Oneeka Botu: Because there should be a point of reassuring your once peer that, listen, we have a relationship, we've worked well together before, I understand some of the things that you would like to see change as your manager.

[00:33:24] Oneeka Botu: Let's work on those things together.

[00:33:26] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yes. I think that's such an important point. Let's name the things that are uncomfortable. And also the other thought that came to me when you were saying that, Oneeka, is, I don't think you need to say this, but I think you need to shift, is you're not gonna be able to complain about the things that you complained about with what had been your peers now with your direct report.

[00:33:49] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So there are slight exceptions, I do think a lot of leaders have maybe one or two people on the team who are a little bit more senior that they could be a little bit more candid with because they have that relationship. But you have to be careful. And I do think that's signaling that you've stepped into your leadership and there's an appropriateness there.

[00:34:11] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: It also, I believe, even though people might find it annoying at the beginning, that they can't gossip with you in the ways that they used to, is it makes them, again, more subconsciously feel safe that this person can be trusted with information, because they're demonstrating that there's a boundary around what can be said and not said by the way they're behaving. 

[00:34:33] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Again, it's not that we always explicitly say that, but I think it's signals some boundaries that are necessary to set.

[00:34:39] Oneeka Botu: And also is the distinction between gossiping and feedback, right? I need support in this area, or this is what needs to change in order for me to be more productive, to contribute to the success of the organization. 

[00:34:59] Oneeka Botu: So they’re different, right? 

[00:35:00] Oneeka Botu: As a peer, you're gossiping.

[00:35:02] Oneeka Botu: It's not so much that you are saying, "Oh, this needs to change and let's make it happen". 

[00:35:08] Oneeka Botu: So when there is that distinction between peer to peer and a peer to a new promoted leader, the terminology and the context is extremely important for that leader to be able to have impact and contribute to positive change.

[00:35:29] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah, I think that that's a really important definitional thing, like complaining isn't to come with a solution. Feedback, again, if done well, is in service of what do we do with this insight?

[00:35:44] Oneeka Botu: Correct.

[00:35:46] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: If it's not, then it's complaining. 

[00:35:47] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So I think that's where I see the line between complaining, venting versus feedback.

[00:35:53] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: At least the type of feedback that leaders want. 

[00:35:55] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: You're sharing this with me so that we can make things better, and that's the intent behind it

[00:36:00] Abigail Charlu: Such a rich conversation and important. Thanks for giving us the strategies to bring both care and clarity to the new relationship. 

[00:36:10] Abigail Charlu: The last situation the leader shared, "I started in a new leadership role at a new organization almost six months ago and I've noticed myself defaulting to old habits. Over-explaining, micromanaging, or trying to keep everyone happy, really because I'm unsure of where I stand, I'm feeling a little insecure. What are the most effective ways new leaders can interrupt these patterns and reset how they lead?"

[00:36:39] Oneeka Botu: Well, first of all, whoever is asking this question can perceive their behavior as failures. 

[00:36:47] Oneeka Botu: For me as a people leader, it's about the signals, right? 

[00:36:52] Oneeka Botu: The over-explaining, the micromanaging, the people pleasing, those are signals. What is important to remember is, even with leadership training, many leaders struggle to translate learning into daily behavior without reinforcement.

[00:37:12] Oneeka Botu: And so when you see these patterns, when you see these signals, it often shows up when a leader is uncertain about where they stand or whether they truly belong. 

[00:37:24] Oneeka Botu: I know this because at one point in my career as a leader, for me it was about executing hard, trying to prove myself and what this does, it really starts this direction of push, push, push, when it should really be about shifting from execution and pushing to connection. 

[00:37:48] Oneeka Botu: Going back to the conversation we had earlier, I think clarifying your role, understanding what motivates your team and being intentional about rebuilding. influence, change, right?

[00:38:03] Oneeka Botu: Because at the end of the day, trust and relationship, when those two things are in place, it's easier to be a strong leader that not only delivers for your team, but also delivers for the organization. And it's a lot more sustainable. 

[00:38:20] Oneeka Botu: I think it's very, very difficult to be a micromanager.

[00:38:24] Oneeka Botu:  It requires an enormous amount of time and an enormous amount of energy. And if that is how you have started, you've gotta get off that train as quickly as possible so that you can really start having long lasting impact.

[00:38:44] Emily Frieze-Kemeny:  I agree. I think there is something relational going on here, and it could be within yourself, like sometimes it really is that we never think we're good enough. 

[00:38:52] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: The first place to always look is within, and is it a mindset that you need to shift because you are, by design, putting yourself in an environment where you're gonna know less and you're gonna have less experience to draw from. 

[00:39:05] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: But the thing that was coming to me is, I was imagining the sandwich, you have a boss, or leadership, you have a team, you obviously have colleagues. You're in the middle of this dynamic. And there's something going on where you're either not feeling safe bringing in your team, or worrying that they're not strong enough or that they don't think you're good enough.

[00:39:24] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: There's either a dynamic I think going on with your team members to be unpacked, and/ or with your leader, 'cause you're picking up on something, is my guess, that is causing you to do these things to show your worth. 

[00:39:40] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: It could be totally within yourself if this is a pattern that you've had across multiple organizations and multiple roles, but my gut is there is something political or relational going on that needs to be worked out, because the goal is you shouldn't feel alone in this way. That's a feeling of loneliness that I'm exposed and I need to fix it, which allows you to tap into a type of power that continues to isolate you, versus the Pivot Power that allows you to feel like you can get to better outcomes and figure out how to keep navigating one move at a time.

[00:40:16] Oneeka Botu: Listen, we've all heard the term 'imposter syndrome', like you feel like an imposter. I think that could also play a role. 

[00:40:24] Oneeka Botu: It's whether you feel that you have earned a seat at the table. 

[00:40:29] Oneeka Botu: So, it really can impact how you show up, not only for yourself, but for the team, for your boss.

[00:40:41] Oneeka Botu: So yes, I think there's much to be discovered. It would be nice to speak to this individual one-to-one to just deep dive and pull out what's happening. But at the end of the day, I think it's just being true to yourself and believing that I belong here, I have earned this, and just take it one day at a time.

[00:41:04] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I agree. So in closing, when you think about your leadership journey, what's been one of the challenges that has shaped you the most where you really had to take time to make a pivot, where something really did shift for you? and, 

[00:41:20] Oneeka Botu: What I've had to learn, or what I have had the privilege of learning, is that adapting my playbook is important, depending on the team that is in front of me. 

[00:41:34] Oneeka Botu: It's not a one size fits all.

[00:41:37] Oneeka Botu: I think also even now more than ever is working in organizations where you have these multi-generational employees that have different mindsets and different views on what does it mean to show up, when do I show up, how do I show up? So it's adaptability. 

[00:41:58] Oneeka Botu: And I know that's one of those words that they say we need as we step into this world of AI, is how can we pivot? How can we adapt? 

[00:42:08] Oneeka Botu: And I would say that that has become one of my superpowers, is the ability to adapt to what is needed, because at the end of the day, I want to be successful. I want to feel that I am contributing to the profitability, the success, the individuals within my organization.

[00:42:29] Oneeka Botu: And so I am willing and I would encourage other leaders to take advantage of the opportunity to adapt.

[00:42:37] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Amazing. Oneeka, thank you so much. It was so incredibly helpful to have this conversation about new leader assimilation. Loved having you on. Really appreciate you.

[00:42:47] Oneeka Botu: My pleasure. Hopefully we're able to help a few listeners with this topic because it's really about authentic relationship, the influence and then the execution.

[00:43:02] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So in terms of takeaways, there's a lot of consciousness that we need to bring when we move into a new leadership role. It isn't about pulling always from what we have done and what we know, it's about adapting to the specific culture and dynamics of that team and what they're trying to accomplish from a business perspective. 

[00:43:23] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Our biggest risk is actually repeating what's worked for us before. 

[00:43:26] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So the goal is, early on, to build relationships so that people trust you, so that you can make an impact and guide the team, understand the stakeholder dynamics, so that instead of having to push harder and having things end up taking longer than you would've expected, go slow at that early stage to get grounded so that you can accelerate progress.

[00:43:48] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: The second point that really stood out to me is, it's important for us to align around the expectations. 

[00:43:55] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So when you're new in a role, you're stepping into a train that is usually already in motion. Figure out where you need to keep things moving fast, and you have to start making decisions and jumping in immediately, and where there's really an expectation that you're listening, you're learning, and you're doing a lot more co-creation with your team as you're getting up to speed. 

[00:44:14] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: It may not be obvious unless you ask those types of questions and really listen to both your boss and your team and colleagues. 

[00:44:21] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: The third is really about what gets triggered in us when we move into a new role, no matter if it's a company we already worked in, or a team that we know, compared to a completely new environment, it brings up some insecurities often, am I good enough? What are people gonna think of me? Am I proving myself fast enough? 

[00:44:38] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: We can end up falling into leadership traps that carry with us from role to role. Over-explaining, micromanaging, people pleasing, which really means, am I good enough? Do you think I'm worthy of this role? 

[00:44:52] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And when we realize that that's happening to us, it's an opportunity for us to realize that we're surrounded by so many people who can help us to be successful and that actually asking for help is one of our most powerful leadership capabilities. It helps us to be in community, to understand the context and to get the clarity that both we and our team need to move forward. 

[00:45:13] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And last but not least, when you are in the position where you start moving up and over what had been your dynamic with peers, it's really important to name it. To have a conversation, to reestablish a relationship from this slightly different contextual position. 

[00:45:32] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: To name that you are the leader and you want to be able to add value to them in that capacity. 

[00:45:38] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So by naming it, not only that something has changed, but that you wanna be of value to them as their boss and how you like to lead and how they like to be led, establishes that expectation while maintaining the trust that you've built in that relationship.

[00:45:58] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: On Let's Talk, People, what we love to do most is help you unpack your toughest people management challenges. So send them in. Send in the situations you're struggling with, the questions that you have about leading your teams, and we will anonymize them and give you answers and our advice on an upcoming episode.

[00:46:17] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: You can write in an email or attach a little audio message with your scenario to abigail@arosegroup.com That's Abigail, A-B-I-G-A-I-L at arose group A-R-O-S-E-G-R-O-U-P.com 

[00:46:38] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Thanks for joining today's episode of Let's Talk, People. For more info and insights, visit arosegroup.com and find me, Emily Frieze-Kemeny, on LinkedIn and Instagram. If you're enjoying the show, please follow, share on social and leave a rating or review in your podcast app- it helps other listeners to discover us.

[00:46:58] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Well, that's a wrap, friends. Until next time when we come together to talk people.