Let's Talk, People: Episode 36

INFLUENCE ISN'T ABOUT WINNING

HOW TO LEAD WITH PERSPECTIVE WHEN THE OUTCOME ISN'T YOURS TO CONTROL

[00:00:00] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Hi, I'm Emily Frieze-Kemeny, host of Let's Talk, People, where leaders come to bridge humanity and profitability. Informed by a couple decades of work as a Head of Talent and Leadership Development, I'm here to amplify leaders so they can exalt everyone and everything they touch. Are you ready? 'Cause it's about to get real.

[00:00:28] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Let's talk, people.

[00:00:36] Emily Frieze-Kemeny:  If you, like me, are here because of your passion for talking leadership and growing your impact and those around you, I want to invite you to check out our new leadership model, Pivot Player. Pivot Player is informed by our research working with thousands of global leaders over the last two decades.

[00:00:53] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: You can learn more about Pivot Player by heading to PivotPlayer.com, where you can also take our free leadership survey and find out which leadership suit or suits you've likely been wearing. Okay. Let's get into the episode.

[00:01:09] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I'm excited to have Courtney Michener Miller on Let's Talk, People today. Courtney is the head of learning for AstraZeneca, a global pharmaceutical organization with more than 94,000 employees worldwide, with over 50 billion in annual revenue.

[00:01:25] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Courtney heads up enterprise learning and development, supporting the sales market access and medical functions. Throughout Courtney's career, she has led people development, learning strategy, organizational transformation across complex global environments. For the last decade at AstraZeneca, she has held both local and global roles and is deeply passionate about human-centered leadership, high impact performance, and helping organizations navigate ambiguity and change.

[00:01:57] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Today I'm excited to dive in, to talk to you about a critical part of leadership, not one that we always love or learn how to do, but is essential, which is how to influence.

[00:02:12] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Courtney, I'm so excited to have you on Let's Talk, People. 

[00:02:15] Courtney Michener Miller: I am so excited to be here, Emily. Thank you for the honor. And I love the name, Let's Talk, People. So we should do this every day. 

[00:02:23] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I love it. So as I was thinking about our topic of influence, I was reflecting on often people don't realize they're in an influencing situation first. Where they go first is like, wait, what that decision was made, I don't know if I agree, what's the background? Why wasn't I consulted? Do they know I know a lot about this? 

[00:02:45] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I think when we first spiral it out a little bit into an emotional place of 'Why has this happened? Or 'Why is this happening to me?', and it's often not until the brain comes back online that we're like, 'Oh, this might be a situation where I have to influence'.

[00:03:01] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So that was the first thing that was coming to mind as I was thinking about this is like a lot of emotional stuff start to layer on, and then you have to figure out, once you realize 'Oh, this is happening', there's a thing happening to me that affects me, that I don't agree with, then how do you be with it? When do you push? Do you stay quiet? Then we start to go into the practicalities of 'Oh, this matters'. 

[00:03:28] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And it was interesting, I was reflecting that I wanna hear your version of this, of a very core memory I have of when I learned an important lesson as an executive about influencing, which was I could see the potential for us approaching a major enterprise process differently. And I was so passionate about how it would help the business, but it got experienced as, 'Huh? What's this about?' 

[00:03:54] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: It felt very much like it had me identified in it, like, why are you pushing? What are you trying to accomplish? What's in this for you? And I was like, what? And it was such a wake up call that when you advocate too hard it confuses people, they don't like it, and that sometimes being right or seeing something that you believe could be better may not actually be what the organization or your leadership is ready for.

[00:04:17] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So I would love to hear a story, a core memory from you, of how you learned about this organizational skill. 

[00:04:24] Courtney Michener Miller: Still learning every day.

[00:04:25] Courtney Michener Miller: And I think that's what this topic of influencing brings up for me. First of all, it, by nature, makes me a little uncomfortable. 

[00:04:33] Courtney Michener Miller: So if I look at my strengths and my values, influencing isn't something that I would identify with. But then when you look at it and you think about futuristic thinking and strategy and the way that you do have to win people, or is that just who you are, you're influencing every day. Right? But it feels to me like in my value system, is that arrogant to think that I have to influence every day? 

[00:04:57] Courtney Michener Miller: So this topic really brought me on a journey of just thinking about through different career chapters when I was first triggered by this, and the voices in your head that you've just described are where the dangerous parts are. Because we are so passionate about whatever it is, if we're high impact performers, which most of us are. 

[00:05:16] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yep. 

[00:05:17] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I think that was interesting that you had the self-awareness, oh my goodness, will this be misconstrued as ego?

[00:05:24] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I didn't even have that awareness. I was more like, let's go! And then I was like, oh, but that's how other people could experience it. So I think that's really interesting of what we believe other people are going to think or how they're going to experience it. 

[00:05:42] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And then also this idea that we don't like influencing and, for me it's like, this is the right thing. Why isn't that understood? 

[00:05:50] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: But we know the system of relationships and politics and stakeholder dynamics, it's such a big part of what effective leadership is. But yeah, we don't like it. 

[00:05:59] Courtney Michener Miller: I mean, maybe someone out there listening does, right? 

[00:06:02] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Right. 

[00:06:03] Courtney Michener Miller: I'm sure someone, especially with a competitive mindset, loves the art of that. I'm not that person, it sounds like you're not either. And it opens up deep inspection. 

[00:06:12] Courtney Michener Miller: And so the word that comes up for me is perspective. 

[00:06:15] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Mm-hmm. 

[00:06:16] Courtney Michener Miller: There is so much power in perspective.

[00:06:19] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yes. 

[00:06:19] Courtney Michener Miller: We have to be patient enough though, to take it in. It's our data. And if we can break it down in an analytical way like that, every perspective in the room is valued. So now in a leadership role, it's easy for me to say that. When I was not, and I was just one person in that room, right? And in some rooms, I'm still one person in that room, in many rooms, you just have to listen to the perspectives and what's at play and what's driving decisions. 

[00:06:46] Courtney Michener Miller: And I think there's a lot to be said for the power of the pause. 

[00:06:50] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Mm-hmm. 

[00:06:50] Courtney Michener Miller: And taking in the perspective as data and then figuring out when you have a stake in the game, for what reason, to drive what for the business? 

[00:06:59] Courtney Michener Miller: It becomes clean that way and we can decouple our emotion from it. 

[00:07:02] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah. 

[00:07:03] Courtney Michener Miller: Which is where we always go. 

[00:07:05] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Obviously anonymizing it to protect the innocent, but do you have a memory of when you got really clear, either that influencing was uncomfortable and not your preferred way of having to build a leadership skill, or when something shifted and you were like, oh, this is something that I need to be doing.

[00:07:26] Courtney Michener Miller: I do, and this is roles ago and I think our best stories and lessons come from our biggest challenges. We've learned that, and so the hard things that you are most passionate about or when it felt like my project, my baby, and it was not, now it just makes me smile because I can't tell you how many nights of sleep I lost over this topic, right? 

[00:07:47] Courtney Michener Miller: We all can say that about something. 

[00:07:50] Courtney Michener Miller: And it was a system that we were looking to bring into the organization and at this time the organization was a decent sized organization, it was a large technology transformation. 

[00:08:01] Courtney Michener Miller: Large technology transformations come with a lot of expertise, and then they also come with this user mindset of are we working for the customer who's gonna be touching this technology? 

[00:08:12] Courtney Michener Miller: And we had moved forward with a vendor and made the decision, made a large investment and very quickly my gut told me this is not the right thing. 

[00:08:23] Courtney Michener Miller: And there are so many other things at play in organizations. So many other reasons and decisions and rooms you'll never be in, that you do have to understand when you need to influence, you can go with your data, you can say your piece and sometimes it will result that way and sometimes it will not. 

[00:08:41] Courtney Michener Miller: So it was an opportunity for me to learn and lean into that in a really high stake situation for the first time. I will never forget it. I was really honest about the way that I was leading with both mind and heart through this thinking, this is a major risk.

[00:08:57] Courtney Michener Miller: And it ended up playing itself out where it was, but we were far gone into the process. 

[00:09:03] Courtney Michener Miller: So that was where I thought, 'What could I ever do different in that situation?' 

[00:09:07] Courtney Michener Miller: And so from there on out, I've always understood that, number one, you don't always influence in the direction that you wanna go, and you can only control the controllable.

[00:09:16] Courtney Michener Miller: In an organization, you really have to learn that. 

[00:09:19] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Influencing doesn't mean winning. 

[00:09:21] Courtney Michener Miller: Exactly. 

[00:09:23] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: It means providing perspective, as you said. 

[00:09:26] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Sharing your voice where you even have a chance to. And then I think this part about perspective is about listening and understanding other people's points of view is so essential.

[00:09:35] Courtney Michener Miller: Yeah. And it puts you in that space of no matter where you are in an organization, and I tell my children this. Control the controllable. 

[00:09:44] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yes. 

[00:09:44] Courtney Michener Miller: There are many things outside of our control, most of them. But focus on the controllable and give all your heart to that. 

[00:09:52] Courtney Michener Miller: And speak your truth. Be authentic. Know what your expertise is and stand down when you're in an arena, when it's no longer your arena, right? 

[00:09:59] Courtney Michener Miller: And so that pulls through for me most days, honestly. 

[00:10:03] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: The way we like to think about it as well, just building on that is that as leaders, there's always a next step, a next action, a next move. There's always a way to keep making a contribution. You're never done until you're done, right? Like, okay, here's the circumstance, here's what we're faced with. Where's the opportunity to bring value? 

[00:10:21] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Because often it's very binary, like the decision is right, the decision is wrong, and that's where we try to use our influencing skills when we're worried about that kind of binary nature. But then the truth is, as you said, we're influencing every day to make things better, to keep momentum, to keep making progress, to keep making a contribution, and there's a lot of space usually to play when you look at it that way. 

[00:10:43] Courtney Michener Miller: Yeah, and I think too, you make me think about how you can be influencing and have no idea that you're doing it.

[00:10:50] Courtney Michener Miller: If we each just put ourselves in our own shoes and think about who we watch. Who we're paying attention to. What podcast we're tuning into. What audible we're listening to on our car ride.

[00:11:00] Courtney Michener Miller: That's all influencing you. 

[00:11:02] Courtney Michener Miller: You're self-selecting, but you're watching people who you look up to, who you want to be influenced by. And I think in organizations you work so closely with people that there's a sphere of influence around you all the time that's actually taking no effort.

[00:11:17] Courtney Michener Miller: And again, it's just perspective, it's just data. 

[00:11:20] Courtney Michener Miller: And I really carry hand over heart, I can say things and not realize that they were the wrong thing or somebody took it a way, or just great intention and had no idea that that's what was being influenced in the room. 

[00:11:32] Courtney Michener Miller: So that awareness too is just very personal.

[00:11:35] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah. I think that's a really good point about leadership, that because of your position and your ability to have impact on people, that that is interpreted as influence. 

[00:11:46] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: It's a different lens to bring to it, which I think is really important. 

[00:11:49] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I love that. 

[00:11:50] Courtney Michener Miller: Yeah. And you wanna do right by people all the time, I do. 

[00:11:52] Courtney Michener Miller: So it feels like pressure. A good one, but pressure. 

[00:11:56] Emily Frieze-Kemeny:  Abigail, I know we have a bunch of questions, so we'll turn it to you. 

[00:12:01] Abigail Charlu: So our first question, manager said: 

[00:12:04] Abigail Charlu: "My boss made a decision that I believe is the wrong one. My direct report is the subject matter expert and brought me clear evidence on why the decision will put our work at risk. 

[00:12:16] Abigail Charlu: Is it my job to influence up on their behalf or should I bring them into the conversation directly?

[00:12:23] Abigail Charlu: How do I decide when to act as a buffer and when to put someone in front of my leadership?" 

[00:12:28] Courtney Michener Miller: I immediately want to say trust your gut. 

[00:12:32] Courtney Michener Miller: All risks are not created equal, so really figure out what you're dealing with. 

[00:12:36] Courtney Michener Miller: But for the person who voiced this, it means everything.

[00:12:39] Courtney Michener Miller: So as a receiving person of this, you have to take it quite seriously, but then you have to understand within the system that you're operating, within the ecosystem, what's at stake. 

[00:12:49] Courtney Michener Miller: Whenever I want to go to any manager I've ever had, I want it to be meaningful. I wanna have the right influence.

[00:12:56] Courtney Michener Miller: Less is more, and I always like a solution. 

[00:12:59] Courtney Michener Miller: You always wanna bring forward some type of solution, even if it's, 'I think this is the next thing we could do to learn more', right? There has to be a solution in there. 

[00:13:07] Courtney Michener Miller: So you've got to use your judgment and your risk assessment within the ecosystem that you're working in, and also, not for one second, should you ever think that no one should have exposure to another level of leadership. 

[00:13:21] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Mm-hmm. 

[00:13:22] Courtney Michener Miller: I think you should always open that door up, as long as you've done the right risk assessment. And if you were in their shoes, you would also feel like this should be a good conversation that we should have. This is something that should be brought forward. 

[00:13:32] Courtney Michener Miller: People are very busy. You wanna use their time wisely. When you do, you have more power to influence because they know it's important if you're coming to them. 

[00:13:40] Courtney Michener Miller: Understand they too have a leader and they too have a leader, and there's other factors at play that you might not be considering. 

[00:13:47] Emily Frieze-Kemeny:  I love how you started because you gave that example of how being a leader is influence already. 

[00:13:55] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: That piece about how you treat the person on your team who has the subject matter expertise, who's bringing it forward, that's already part of the puzzle. I think that's a really important call out, is regardless, as you said, of your risk assessment of whether you can bring it forward to your leadership, the way you treat the people on your team who say, "Hey, look at what I have to show you. Look at why I'm concerned about this", being able to hold both that evidence that they are bringing to you that they see and the emotion that sits with it, that was a perfect illustration of that form of influence as just being a leader. 

[00:14:29] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And agree with you. I think we're always using our judgment and knowing the bigger context. If you don't know the bigger context, that's always where I'd start. 

[00:14:38] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: If you don't know how far gone the decision is, all the different players who are involved in this and is it bigger than your own leadership, you need that intel.

[00:14:49] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: The other thing that I've learned, which I think really irritates people about organizational politics, but let's just name it as real, is the pre-meeting. 

[00:14:57] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So my gut when I was reading this one is I would go to my boss and say, "Hey, so and so on my team has a really thoughtful perspective and some really helpful information that they shared with me, I wanted to see if it'd be helpful." 

[00:15:12] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So that way you kind of know what their headset is, and then you still have to make that choice of whether you're gonna bring the person on your team into the meeting with you. But you at least know my boss is gonna be pissed. They're gonna sit through it, because they know it's the right thing to do, but they're gonna be annoyed, or they're gonna be curious. You're gonna kind of know, and that way you can still decide whether you bring that person or not. And if you do, and if they have the skills you believe to navigate that in the room, you can prep them.

[00:15:41] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And I think that the meetings before the meetings, it just sets you and your team member or team members up for more success, to be able to influence and not have it get uncomfortable. 

[00:15:54] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And again, that doesn't mean people won't have emotions.

[00:15:56] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I think we have to learn better skills when we're influencing, especially influencing up, as well as I think sideways to our peers, is that people are gonna bring a lot of emotion with them.

[00:16:08] Courtney Michener Miller: Yeah, so much his mindset. But in that example, I feel for the ecosystem, I feel for the size of the organization that an individual may be in, the layers of decision making that may or may not be there, but you always open up the power of perspective whenever you can and when it's valued in their subject matter expertise fully aligned.

[00:16:29] Abigail Charlu: So good. Our next question, a leader shared: 

[00:16:33] Abigail Charlu: "When I'm really passionate about something, I default to advocating hard using all the tactics in my toolbox, data, storytelling, conviction. Lately I'm seeing more resistance from senior leaders and when decisions don't go my way, I honestly struggle to let it go".

[00:16:52] Courtney Michener Miller: At some point in my journey, I learned that there's always things I don't see, and it's actually the most important thing I can do is trust my leader, to know that they've have the information that they have from me, from the team, from anyone, they've got all the context and they've done what they need to do with that. 

[00:17:14] Courtney Michener Miller: And then I have to let it go. And that is a lesson that I do feel I come back to this often, but I have learned that now that, again, back to control the controllable and advocating with the subject matter expertise that your team has, that you have, that there are other factors that are involved in a decision that you just may not see that are driving this in a different direction. 

[00:17:40] Courtney Michener Miller: So that is a bit of a benefit of the doubt approach and perspective. But working now in a large organization, I know that there's always more than I can ever see, and I rely on my leadership to help me navigate that.

[00:17:57] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I wanna really emphasize this point about the relationship you have with your own leadership, your boss, maybe even your boss's boss. I think that is something that is like 101 influencing skills toolkit. 

[00:18:11] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I've had to coach some people through uninspiring versions of that, 'cause it doesn't mean you always agree with them or that you're aligned in your views.

[00:18:22] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Where you'd come out on certain decisions, like you could be really different. 

[00:18:25] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: But that ability to respect their positional authority, ideally, that you really do see their capabilities and their strengths and their value, to find your way to that, I think that is part of your influencing toolkit. Because if you can't do that, you can't get your head around making things work and influencing effectively. And then I think you'll have a harder time coaching your team because you're stuck in your own frustration. 

[00:18:51] Courtney Michener Miller: Yeah. 

[00:18:52] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So that to me was a really important call out, regardless of scenario: do not underestimate the importance of the boss relationship that you have.

[00:19:01] Courtney Michener Miller: Yeah, and you'll hit every version of that in your career. 

[00:19:05] Courtney Michener Miller: You will love bosses, you will not, you will be inspired, you will not. You figure out who you are. And that will change. 

[00:19:14] Courtney Michener Miller: You feel like it's gonna last forever when you're in it. We've all been there. 

[00:19:18] Courtney Michener Miller: But it doesn't. You navigate your ship the way you need to, but I hold the highest respect for any leader that comes my way, especially now with time, just knowing we carry a lot on our shoulders and every other layer carries more and more and more. 

[00:19:33] Courtney Michener Miller: So figure out how to help and how to serve.

[00:19:35] Courtney Michener Miller: That's the calling that should be there. 

[00:19:37] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I agree. It just takes a little bit of that edge off, as you said. 

[00:19:40] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I know how much leaders appreciate when their team gives them that grace, it's amazing. 

[00:19:47] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So as somebody who has a lot of passion and conviction, I'm feeling a lot of empathy for this person, and what they're feeling about the struggling to let it go.

[00:19:58] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: This is a tough one because often how I guide people and I've had to self-talk it as well when I was in these circumstances, is sometimes I'm actually gonna say, you have to care a little bit less. 

[00:20:11] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Because sometimes what happens, your desire for the right answer overrides that perspective that we've been talking about, that you've, been saying, Courtney, like the situation your boss is in, that there's a bigger picture that things are outside of your control. And I sometimes will say to people, what if you imagine for this moment that you're a consultant? Like, I'm here to bring perspective, expertise, thought leadership to help you make the best decision. 

[00:20:38] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: You don't own it. 

[00:20:39] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And there's something that happens to us in the best way and in the worst way when we're an employee, where it feels really tied to our identity. 

[00:20:48] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: If I put on the consulting hat and said let me ask some good questions. Let me provide some helpful information. 

[00:20:55] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: But ultimately, you know, it's not yours to make, I do think it takes some of that emotional identity based stuff, it takes it out a little bit and I think sometimes people feel like, but then am I not bringing my full self? 

[00:21:09] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: You're bringing your full self because that version of you was too much of your full self, like that was more than what the organization wanted. 

[00:21:16] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: This ability to calibrate and say, I'm just here to consult on this, provides just a little bit more of a boundary. And sometimes I tell people to almost hat switch, and put on your consultant hat in those moments, versus your employee type hat.

[00:21:30] Courtney Michener Miller: Love that. That's great counsel.

[00:21:31] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: It's hard though, I get it. 

[00:21:33] Abigail Charlu: Absolutely. This next situation goes maybe even a layer deeper into this same topic. The manager submitted this situation: 

[00:21:44] Abigail Charlu: "A major decision is being shaped in rooms I'm not invited to and I know it will affect my work and my team. I feel frustrated and emotionally hooked by the outcome, but I don't have access or leverage to influence it. 

[00:21:59] Abigail Charlu: How do you lead yourself and others when the decision is out of your control, but your response still matters?"

[00:22:06] Courtney Michener Miller: Yeah, this is especially pertinent, I think, to the manager who submitted this and the way they feel about life and messaging that they have to deliver and almost the perception of being excluded.

[00:22:22] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah. 

[00:22:23] Courtney Michener Miller: All of that's so common. Again, there's always rooms we're not in. And that is just something we must accept. But there is something that I think is a really important leadership capability that has come to me quite recently, probably within the past few years, where I use the term 'change catalyst'.

[00:22:42] Courtney Michener Miller: And as a leader you have to communicate a lot of things that you love. You have to communicate a lot of things that you don't love. 

[00:22:50] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Exactly. Yep. 

[00:22:52] Courtney Michener Miller: And either way, your job is to communicate that and to catalyze in your people as a manager that they feel well-versed, that they understand what it means for them, and that you don't let your emotions get too far into it.

[00:23:10] Courtney Michener Miller: You are there to be a leader of people. And that I really feel is a capability because it's hard to disconnect when you don't agree with something that you then have to communicate, that you then have to ask people to do. 

[00:23:24] Courtney Michener Miller: It's really tough, but at the same time, we are employees of places, right?

[00:23:30] Courtney Michener Miller: We work in places, and so we have to understand that there will be decisions and things that you will not be fully read in on every angle of why a decision was made. But for the manager, it's that change catalyst feeling, sometimes you've gotta communicate the hard, and it is hard.

[00:23:48] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: It really is. Because sometimes what happens as you get more senior is you're like, do you know how lucky you are that you're not in those rooms? Like, do you know how hard it is to be in those rooms and getting yelled at and getting called out and being asked for the numbers and the data on the spot?

[00:24:05] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So it's funny how sometimes your perspective changes as well, as you take on different organizational roles. 

[00:24:11] Courtney Michener Miller: Yeah. As the employee and as the manager, be where you are. 

[00:24:15] Courtney Michener Miller: Take away the change catalyst.

[00:24:17] Courtney Michener Miller: I'm still working through it. So I feel like it's just a really important persona that you have to carry. Things happen. Decisions are made all the time that impact us everywhere. I'll get home from dinner tonight and if somebody cooked dinner, I will eat whatever they give me.

[00:24:34] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: You weren't in that room when they made that decision!

[00:24:40] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: It's interesting, you haven't used this word, Courtney, but there's this underlying message that I feel. Do we see things with appreciation, gratitude, perspective, you used, which I love, you know, it is a mindset of how you look at the world and especially the world of work. 

[00:24:58] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Because it's interesting, like when you get outside of the work world, you're more on equal footing often with people, like if it's your family dynamic or if it's friendships or community group that you chose to join. But you're right, there is more hierarchy in the workplace and we have to know that that's part of the deal and what we signed up for and we receive a paycheck and they don't always want us to weigh in on everything.

[00:25:23] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: There's two things that were coming up for me on this one as well, one was I feel a little bit of emotion as you would expect about not being invited in, right? There's a feeling there. 

[00:25:33] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: You can't change that as the boss. 

[00:25:35] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: What you could do is to make sure that the people on your team feel like they have enough context and clarity that even though they weren't there, do you do enough that you can execute with conviction? 

[00:25:50] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: If you can't execute and you won't do it, then we've got a bigger problem. 

[00:25:54] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So I sometimes wonder if what that means is there's a feeling of, if I had been in the room, I would've known more. And so that I do think is a leadership responsibility around influencing to provide enough information through your team member's lens that they feel, at least set up to execute on it. Forget whether they agree or don't agree, which is totally different. 

[00:26:15] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And then the other thing that maybe was bothering me a little bit in this one that, again, I might be reading into it too much, but there's the what I can't influence and then, but from what you were talking about before, Courtney, it's the what I can influence.

[00:26:28] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So I would encourage this person to say, "Yeah, there's rooms I'm not invited into". 

[00:26:33] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: But let's make a list. Let's go through all the things that you have influence over, and that your team members, your colleagues, all of us have influence over. Let's figure out what within this 'cause I think that's where we get distracted by the noise.

[00:26:46] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I have not gotten the perfect stat on this, but the closest stat I've gotten to it says that almost 30% of energy in organizations is spent on complaining. 

[00:26:56] Courtney Michener Miller: Hmm. 

[00:26:56] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: We have so much feelings about it that it interferes with productive work. And I don't think we like it. I don't think it's fulfilling. It might be necessary to allow you to get to the productive work, but I think that trying to bring people back to what is the stuff that we can do here, once they're ready to be productive in that way, that is a form of influencing for oneself and for how you manage your team.

[00:27:21] Abigail Charlu: Absolutely. At Arose Group, there's a framework that we name 'The Sphere of Influence'. You have a sphere of which you have agency, you yourself can make decisions over, a sphere of which you have influence, which is the majority of what we're talking about today.

[00:27:38] Abigail Charlu: And then there's this sphere, which you just have to accept and lead people through with care and clarity, and even in that sphere of acceptance, there are always things that you have agency over yourself, how you respond, and there are always things that you can influence.

[00:27:58] Abigail Charlu: And what can you and your team do to make changes to mitigate those risks that were concerning to you? Right? 

[00:28:05] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah. And I like naming that hat, like what situation are we in? Are we in acceptance? Are we in influencing? Are we in agency? 

[00:28:11] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Agency's obviously a little bit easier 'cause that's the one we prefer to be in, but yeah, sometimes you have to name it to be able to get through it.

[00:28:19] Abigail Charlu: Absolutely. Our last question, the leader shared: 

[00:28:23] Abigail Charlu: "I'm in senior forums where decisions are made quickly and emotionally, and I've learned that more data or stronger arguments often make things worse. 

[00:28:32] Abigail Charlu: How do I decide when to speak, when to hold back, and when to introduce insight in a way that creates alignment rather than resistance?

[00:28:41] Abigail Charlu: And is all of this supposed to be so hard? Why don't they trust the leaders and subject matter experts to make the right decisions in the first place?" 

[00:28:51] Courtney Michener Miller: Yes. There is something to be said for this statement "less is more", and to know when that is applicable. 

[00:28:59] Courtney Michener Miller: You made me, Abby, go to like a large boardroom environment in that question, and I'm thinking it's high stakes, and you come prepared with your 34 page deck that you prepared to go to bat and defend, and everyone has 20 minutes to decide before they need to leave the room.

[00:29:17] Courtney Michener Miller: And so you've got to know what playing field you're on. 

[00:29:20] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah. 

[00:29:21] Courtney Michener Miller: Number one. And less is more. 

[00:29:24] Courtney Michener Miller: So Liz Wiseman in her research, her Multipliers research, which is a phenomenal book with a beautiful yellow cover, if you haven't read it, go get it. And it really talks about how to multiply talent, and especially as a leader, all of your diminishing qualities that come out. So, it's great. 

[00:29:42] Courtney Michener Miller: But one of the things that she advises, a tactic, especially within a role in a boardroom as a leader, is to play your chips. And so she imagines, you have five chips in front of you. Imagine a poker chip, and you only get five comments. And every time you make your comment, you have to give one of your chips in.

[00:30:01] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Mm-hmm. 

[00:30:01] Courtney Michener Miller: Therefore, you can't just talk when you want to. You have to prep and really know when to speak. 

[00:30:08] Courtney Michener Miller: This is applicable for a team meeting, so you don't talk the whole time. I definitely could be guilty of that, right? And this is applicable when you're in a room where you know, if something's being made, a decision's being made or not, and you have something to say.

[00:30:23] Courtney Michener Miller: And so pick what chip you're gonna play and when you're going to play it and be very prepared to be concise. 

[00:30:29] Courtney Michener Miller: And that brings you back to the point of gratitude and privilege where you have a voice to use. You are in a position and a business to use it. Be prepared and be concise. 

[00:30:43] Courtney Michener Miller: I had a manager who used to say, "Be brief, be brilliant, and be gone".

[00:30:48] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah, I agree with that. I remember distinctly, I was working with a senior group of executives when I was at IBM and the CEO at the time came in to speak to them and him naming something that I had seen as a pattern, which was this idea that even though leaders will ask for a lot of data and expect it, that decisions are often made on instinct, intuition, emotion. That's a real thing. 

[00:31:14] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So I think the fact that this irritates us is a lack of understanding of human psychology and organizational dynamics. 

[00:31:20] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: That yes, you always need data, and as you said, Courtney, like you have to be prepared and ready to articulate it succinctly, but we have to stop being annoyed that this is how things happen.

[00:31:30] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: It's a bunch of human beings having conversations and making decisions. So there's always gonna be more at play. So I think that's the first thing is to normalize this as a dynamic. 

[00:31:40] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And then, when do you speak and when do you not speak?

[00:31:44] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I think sometimes we forget that the most powerful thing we do when we open our mouth is to pose a question. So it could still be that you're using that data, or that insight that you have, but sometimes it allows us to gauge and draw in, so it's not just a one and done. 

[00:32:02] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I could make that one chip 10 chips if I ask the right question.

[00:32:07] Emily Frieze-Kemeny:  'Cause I could say, you know, "From this situation we had with X, Y, and Z client, this came up and I was just curious what should we do going forward in that type of a situation?" 

[00:32:17] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So it's like you're drawing the person in which you're then like, I get to have my 1A chip, my 1B chip, my 1C chip, because now you've got them in a dialogue with you. 

[00:32:27] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And that, I think we forget, the most helpful influencing skill is get them working with you. The give and the take. And Chris Voss' work, I've been reading his book on negotiating, it also talks about this idea of how you use language.

[00:32:43] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Depending on what they say, you repeat the last part of what they articulate. 

[00:32:48] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: The mirroring back even the same language, there's techniques of how you keep drawing in these senior leaders who are the decision makers, versus, it's me then you then done. 

[00:32:58] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So I think there's a variety pack that is part of the influencing skillset around you ask a question that shows a curiosity about the other person's perspective, and then how you respond with using their language to show them that you heard them and to bring more closeness, I think. 

[00:33:18] Courtney Michener Miller: Yeah. I love that. And my favorite question is, "Tell me more", because you are seeking out information that will, depending on what role you're in, help you form a better argument to help you use your chips, should you get a chance to deal more of them. 

[00:33:31] Courtney Michener Miller: Yeah. I love that. 

[00:33:32] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: We have one last question in closing, which is for you, and we're gonna open it up a little bit, so it could be on influencing, it could be on something else, but what's a time where you really struggled with a leadership challenge and felt that you had to pivot your approach? 

[00:33:48] Courtney Michener Miller: I think every day is a pivot because we are all carrying so much. And it changes daily, right? A sick child, a sick parent. You, yourself. Something happening in the world that's really bothering you. Something at work. 

[00:34:04] Courtney Michener Miller: There are so many factors to what makes a person show up every day. 

[00:34:08] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Mm-hmm. 

[00:34:08] Courtney Michener Miller: What somebody needs on Monday maybe isn't what they need on Wednesday. And so being able to pivot, being able to meet people where they are and carrying a sense of agility, none of it's about me. It's all about them. 

[00:34:21] Courtney Michener Miller: My biggest learnings are when I have not been able to meet someone where they are. 

[00:34:26] Courtney Michener Miller: Those are the lessons that I carry the hardest and just make me feel all that more human. You can't always be what someone needs. You cannot always be the solution.

[00:34:40] Courtney Michener Miller: You do have to be in the experience, but there is only so much you can do. 

[00:34:46] Courtney Michener Miller: And so being able to pivot every day, it's hard for me to think about one example. It's my goal to lead with agility and to meet humans where they are, and it makes it all that much more important and powerful and all that much more hard.

[00:35:01] Courtney Michener Miller: That's just who I am as a leader. 

[00:35:03] Courtney Michener Miller: I think about even, outside of the work world, I'm blessed with four kids and I consider them my best coaches. 

[00:35:11] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah. 

[00:35:12] Courtney Michener Miller: Because everything that happens at home is applicable and they're the hardest critics.

[00:35:18] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah. 

[00:35:19] Courtney Michener Miller: And they're the ones that will go head to head and toe to toe on a challenge in a way that's outside of work parameters. And, you know, Emily made the point of asking the questions. 

[00:35:28] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah. 

[00:35:29] Courtney Michener Miller: Give the power back and let it pivot to where they are in the moment.

[00:35:34] Courtney Michener Miller: There is magic there. 

[00:35:36] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: When you hit these moments where you can't always meet the person where they are, or it's not your responsibility, or there's just enough of a difference of opinion, what is the pivot in those moments? 

[00:35:48] Emily Frieze-Kemeny:  I think people really struggle with this because I think a lot of people get to leadership because you're like natural problem solvers. 

[00:35:54] Courtney Michener Miller: Yeah. 

[00:35:54] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So what do you do? What are your tactics when that happens? 

[00:35:58] Courtney Michener Miller: I wish I had some great playbook that I could quote from. 

[00:36:02] Courtney Michener Miller: If I'm thinking about any experience where it was either me who needed to make a different decision, or another individual, it's so personal and we are where we are in our lives because that's where we are.

[00:36:14] Courtney Michener Miller: We can change those things. 

[00:36:16] Courtney Michener Miller: We have the power and the agency to change a job, to change a friend, to change anything. And so the agency sits with the person and so you have to give it back. You really do. 

[00:36:28] Courtney Michener Miller: And so leadership and performance management is a whole separate topic, but when it comes to influence, every individual deserves knowing that they have the agency to carry on. And that's important. 

[00:36:40] Courtney Michener Miller: And that's what makes life, life, right? We write different chapters all the time. Sometimes it's just not for staying. So knowing that important, and that does, again, come with mindset, gratitude, the privilege to chart your course. 

[00:36:53] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah, I appreciate that so much. 

[00:36:55] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Thank you, Courtney. So appreciate the insights and the reflections. 

[00:37:00] Courtney Michener Miller: I loved every second. I hope this was helpful. Thank you so much. 

[00:37:05] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So many takeaways. Let me summarize a few that are sticking with me. One is the importance of pausing instead of pushing. A lot of us move into an emotional reaction when things feel like they're happening to us. Frustration, defensiveness, complaining. Why wasn't I consulted?

[00:37:23] Emily Frieze-Kemeny:  Influence only can start after you pause, notice what's going on for you, get some perspective both within yourself and through conversations and insight from others. And then from that place you decide to take action, ideally on what's within your control. 

[00:37:41] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: The second one was really about that relationship we have with our own bosses and really trying to find a place of respect, gratitude, and appreciation for, they have hard jobs too, and they're carrying a lot. 

[00:37:53] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And our ability to have that perspective allows us to influence them and outcomes better than when we get into an adversarial dynamic in our own heads with them. 

[00:38:03] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: The third is about leading with data and solutions, not just bringing our conviction.

[00:38:08] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: In these cases where we have a strong point of view and knowledge, we wanna say a lot, but less is more. So before we escalate, before we over advocate, it's important to do a risk assessment so that way you can bring a clear and net recommendation, and/or what the next step is to learn more to know how to influence.

[00:38:30] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: The other one that comes up is really this idea: the politics of organizations. There's usually a meeting before the meeting. Use that time to start influencing to get the context that you need with your boss so that you are better prepared as well as the people on your team, and even align on what tone, what goals are gonna be most effective to be able to move things to even a better outcome.

[00:38:53] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And then from that place, you can then decide, do you bring your direct reports with you? How do you prep them? Or is it better in some cases to handle it on your team's behalf? 

[00:39:03] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And then last but not least, influencing is not the same as winning. 

[00:39:07] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So sometimes we say our peace, we share the risks, we ask probing questions, and leadership still chooses a different path.

[00:39:15] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: That's what we sign up for when we work in organizations. None of us own it all. Our job is really to focus on the controllable, to communicate with clarity, to help our teams to execute, to feel valued and of worth, and to stay grounded where we can in either our sphere of agency influence or acceptance, and when we don't know which one we're in, to figure it out so that we know how to move forward.

[00:39:40] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Influence isn't about being louder. It's a strategic and human leadership skill that makes you and your team more effective.

[00:39:54] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: On Let's Talk, People, what we love to do most is help you unpack your toughest people management challenges. So send them in. Send in the situations you're struggling with, the questions that you have about leading your teams, and we will anonymize them and give you answers and our advice on an upcoming episode.

[00:40:13] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: You can write in an email or attach a little audio message with your scenario to abigail@arosegroup.com That's Abigail, A-B-I-G-A-I-L at arose group A-R-O-S-E-G-R-O-U-P.com 

[00:40:34] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Thanks for joining today's episode of Let's Talk, People. For more info and insights, visit arosegroup.com and find me, Emily Frieze-Kemeny, on LinkedIn and Instagram. If you're enjoying the show, please follow, share on social and leave a rating or review in your podcast app- it helps other listeners to discover us.

[00:40:54] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Well, that's a wrap, friends. Until next time when we come together to talk people.