Let's Talk, People: Episode 33

KEEPING PEOPLE ISN'T ALWAYS KIND

MANAGING PERFORMANCE WITH CLARITY, CARE, AND CONVICTION

[00:00:00] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Hi, I'm Emily Frieze-Kemeny, host of Let's Talk, People, where leaders come to bridge humanity and profitability. Informed by a couple decades of work as a head of talent and leadership development, I'm here to amplify leaders so they can exalt everyone and everything they touch. Are you ready? 'Cause it's about to get real. Let's talk, people.

[00:00:35] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I'm excited to welcome Mary Beech to Let's Talk, People. She's the Chief Growth Officer of Thorn, a science-driven wellness company where she oversees marketing and e-commerce and uniting data, customer insights, and scientific rigor across the organization to accelerate their growth.

[00:00:54] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Prior to her time at Thorn, Mary was the Chief Marketing and Transformation Officer of Scholastic, a global children's publishing, education and media company, where she was also a member of their board. She was also the Chief Marketing Officer at Kate Spade, the Chief Executive Officer of Sarah Flint, a luxury direct to consumer footwear brand, and she spent over a decade at Disney and Pixar, where she rose to the role of SVP of Global Licensing and Marketing.

[00:01:25] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Today we're gonna dive into one of the toughest leadership challenges that we face, which is when to know it's time to let someone go, to let them move on in their careers versus trying to make it work. Let's dive in.

[00:01:44] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Mary, I am very excited to have you on Let's Talk, People.

[00:01:48] Mary Beech: Absolutely thrilled to be here, Emily. Thank you for having me.

[00:01:51] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: We have a very interesting topic that we are gonna unpack together. I think that when you have that connection to humanity and you care about people, one of the harder things we grapple with as leaders is someone who's not performing and sometimes the expectations change, which can happen because businesses in life is dynamic. 

[00:02:14] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Sometimes it's just because the prior manager didn't really hold the bar high enough. And we know it can be a drain on us as leaders, and it also has an impact on the team. And sometimes we're like, okay, well, because we care let's see, maybe they'll improve, I wanna give 'em more time. Sometimes the culture is the type that wants to make things work and hold on to people.

[00:02:36] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So the question really is how do you know when it's time to call it? 

[00:02:40] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So maybe just as a way to jump into this, is there a time in your career where you remember confronting this? And maybe it was that you or the prior leader held onto somebody for too long and they weren't meeting expectations and everybody knew it, or, what was a moment that you remember that this is a hard and important part of leadership?

[00:03:01] Mary Beech: I remember really distinctly the first time that this happened. I was in my first big role, when I had a large team. So I had had small teams, I had had big roles, but maybe in an individual contributor kind of way. But this was my first significant role. New company. New level for me. And within the first 30 days of that job, I realized that someone on the team wasn't serving the business, wasn't serving the brand, wasn't serving the team, and was likely not going to be able to serve me. 

[00:03:33] Mary Beech: And I remember distinctly sitting down with the HR leader, and saying, "I'm gonna give this 90 days."

[00:03:40] Mary Beech: I had a lot of belief in myself that I could help turn this around. I think that, as you mentioned, as an empathetic leader, that's what you want to do. You want to turn a situation around. I think, at least I can speak for myself as a woman, I think I can fix things. But I had a very clear gut instinct within 30 days of understanding the business and the culture and the situation that this wasn't going to be good. 

[00:04:04] Mary Beech: And I gave myself these 90 days and it was the longest 90 days of my career. And the thing that, crystallized it for me, Emily, is that when I finally took the action after 90 days, and I mean hemming and hawing over the conga line of how you were going to deliver this information and how was I gonna manage it with the team, this person that I was letting go,  the team said, what took you so long?

[00:04:28] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Oh yeah.

[00:04:29] Mary Beech: And it was just such a great realization that the impact of an underperforming employee or someone who's not able to hit the mark isn't just on you and it isn't just on the business, it's on the whole team.

[00:04:41] Mary Beech: And that made me realize that my own desire to fix it and my own belief that I could manage the situation was both naive and actually not empathetic towards the broader community that I was serving. I was so focused on that one person, that I forgot about the larger community that I was serving. 

[00:04:59] Mary Beech: And that was a big wake up call for me.

[00:05:01] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah, and the thing that you said too is that things have a history beyond us. So we come into situations, people get transferred. As you said, you started a new role in a new company, and so for you, 90 days seems really fair and kind. But that doesn't count for the three years prior.

[00:05:18] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: It's funny, I had a version of this, but it was even slightly more severe, where I was told on my first day in multiple jobs at new companies, it was probably two of the times I changed, where there was people on the team who had to go.

[00:05:31] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: They already knew. They already had called it, they knew it, and no feedback had been given. 

[00:05:35] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So then it's like, "Okay, get to it Emily." 

[00:05:37] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Which is also an interesting dynamic around that balance between what's too quick and what's too slow.

[00:05:42] Mary Beech: Yeah. I love that when they decide you're gonna be the bad guy. 

[00:05:46] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Oh yeah. They're like, "Oh, we're so happy you're here! Can you clean up this mess that we've been holding onto?" 

[00:05:51] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And you're like, wow, people are gonna love me as the new leader, right?

[00:05:54] Mary Beech: Yes, absolutely. But again, even in that situation, the thing to remember is that if leadership has finally realized that it's a problem, the surrounding organization and in particular the team is definitely there. 

[00:06:07] Mary Beech: And so how you approach that, you still have to be empathetic to the individual that's involved. You have to do the right thing by the company, but it's just an acknowledgement that this isn't all on me. I'm not alone in making this decision, this is a decision for the broader organization and the broader team, not just for me.

[00:06:24] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I wanna just put a pin on something you just said, Mary, 'cause it's such a bigger point about leadership I think is so important that you're raising, which is we often look at leadership like, 'This is on me. This is my responsibility. This is my decision.'

[00:06:39] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And you're right, we always sit in more of a collective context, but there's a way that maybe even how a leadership role looks like on an org chart or the responsibility that we hold for being a leader that makes it feel like you're alone in it.

[00:06:52] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: But you're right, we're never alone in the decisions or the lack of decisions that we make.

[00:06:57] Mary Beech: Yes. 

[00:06:58] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I love that memory for us like we are in it together.

[00:07:02] Mary Beech: Always. 

[00:07:03] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Abby, I know we have a bunch of questions. 

[00:07:06] Abigail Charlu: Some good and juicy questions that came in. The first manager shared: "I'm spending so much time trying to "fix" one struggling team member that my high performers are getting less of my attention. How do I reset, so I'm investing my time and developing resources where they'll have the biggest impact without also neglecting or ignoring the team member that needs the most improvement?"

[00:07:32] Mary Beech: Hmm. I think this is one of the toughest parts about being a leader. I think it most likely happens in classrooms. It happens as parents sometimes, you know, I had an older kid going through the college process and I know my younger kid definitely wasn't getting that full attention at that moment. 

[00:07:47] Mary Beech: There are moments when you have to sprint. So that would be my running analogy here, that you have to sprint and intensely focus on an employee and pull away from others for that. And often it's when you bring a new employee on, that first onboarding phase takes more of your time and attention. When someone's changed roles within your org, maybe it's laterally or been elevated that you really have to lean in. Maybe someone's having a setback, there's a new skill that they're having to learn in order to be successful. So there are those moments where you have to sprint. What you have to make sure of is that you don't all of a sudden find yourself running a marathon, 365. That's not possible. 

[00:08:22] Mary Beech: So it's taking that moment to define the situation, how long do I think I need to lean in there? And then maybe there's small changes that you can make to how you manage that employee in an ongoing way, like spending time with them in person, in the way that you do with other leaders, but then encouraging them to also ask async questions offline.

[00:08:43] Mary Beech: So it's like, okay, I'm gonna always spend 30 minutes dedicated with you a week. If you found that was turning into an hour, an hour and a half, multiple times, it's like, listen, we have 30 minutes together, but async, follow up, ask clarifying questions, let's try that. 

[00:08:57] Mary Beech: And then, you can answer those when you have free time.

[00:09:00] Mary Beech: Or maybe you try coaching them over email. I sometimes use shared documents so that I can weigh in, but again, I'm not rewriting it for them. I'm just giving coaching within the writing. 

[00:09:10] Mary Beech: So that's how I think of it. First, it's defining this can't continue, 'cause I find that's the thing we have the hardest time with, and then finding ways to reduce the amount of time, or at least the amount of in-person time, it's requiring you to lean in.

[00:09:22] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I think that's so important because the fact that there's some sort of a performance problem means it needs attention. You can't ignore it. 

[00:09:31] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So I think you're right, Mary. That's the hook that pulls us in, but the fact that, as you described, there's different ways to allocate your time and support between what you can do asynchronously and put it back in their court again, versus workshopping it all through. And then of course there's gonna be times where you do need to workshop it and dialogue through it with them both giving them feedback and helping them to think about it, is so important. 

[00:09:56] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I think the other thing that ties back to the point where we were talking about, about how we're always leading in community. I often feel like, on both sides, how do I help the person who is having performance struggles as a leader? 

[00:10:07] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: They have colleagues. Where can the colleague come in and help team them up on a project, say, "Hey, so and so did this for another client or another project, why don't you borrow their project plan?" or "They're happy to sit with you", or "We're just out of time and we got a lot that has to get done, I'm gonna put a second person on this with you." 

[00:10:25] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So I think there's slick ways without making the person feel really ashamed of their performance gap, that you can set them up for success and make it feel like they're being supported in community. 

[00:10:36] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And it obviously gives you a little bit of bandwidth back, and then also it helps you to get some feedback quicker on whether that person's making improvements back to this timeline on how long do you wait and how long do you not, 'cause you're gonna be strategic about who you pair them up with. 

[00:10:51] Mary Beech: Absolutely. 

[00:10:52] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: The flip side of it that came to mind as I was listening to you too is the high performers, because what you said, Mary, which I do feel like we really struggle with is our time.

[00:11:01] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Because your time is not just spent on your team, like you have work that you have to get done, you have clients, you have bosses, you have colleagues, like, we're always spread really thin. It's just a matter of what can you do within a team context that makes people feel connected and engaged and appreciated.

[00:11:18] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I feel like people really dislike team meetings. But how does that become more of a forum where you can give that infusing of positivity, energy, inspiration, presence to a broader array of people versus the one-to-one blocking and tackling of leadership that is just sometimes so hard?

[00:11:36] Mary Beech: I agree Emily, and something you just said made me think of another aspect. Again, the reverse of that question is, if you're spending all of your time with your underperformers, you're not leaning in with your superstars. And if you took a human out of it, if you had an underperforming channel you could spend time and money trying to make that underperforming channel a high performing channel. But if you actually put the same amount of time and energy to something that is already giving you traction, you can put a jet pack on it and make it go 500% versus tweaks that will get you from bad to less bad. 

[00:12:09] Mary Beech: So I do think sometimes putting that more objective hat on, or taking off the subjective hat and saying, "We do need that time with our high performers" and it would be terrible to look back at your week and say, "Wow, didn't get any time with those individuals". 

[00:12:22] Mary Beech:  I think something that happens is we're doing the work of folks that aren't there. So I do think finding those ways to work offline, to give coaching to all instead of one-on-one, to find other ways to delegate to some folks on the team to help out in different areas, just frees up your time to put that back into your high performers.

[00:12:40] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yes, it's almost like you're thinking about your time and your value, like portfolio management.

[00:12:47] Mary Beech: Exactly.

[00:12:48] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: That is how we run businesses, but we don't think about the preciousness of our own time and how we allocate it and to whom.

[00:12:56] Mary Beech: Absolutely.

[00:12:57] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Because there's never enough of it.

[00:12:58] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Some of the most successful people, like Warren Buffet, there's a number of very successful people where they'll say the most precious resource is our time. 

[00:13:05] Abigail Charlu: Really helpful. Another manager shared: "I have someone who's great at hustling and pitching in on a little bit of everything, but as the team grows, we really just need more specialists. They seem to be no longer feeling fulfilled and the role doesn't align with their strengths anymore. How do I manage that transition without losing them or letting the team stall out?"

[00:13:30] Mary Beech: So I have faced this issue a number of times in high growth organizations, it's really common, particularly in a startup environment. But there is a moment where you need generalists, because you have five people and they need to be good at doing 15 things each. And then as you grow, you need to have people who are really good within their silo. So this happens all the time. 

[00:13:50] Mary Beech: Based on the question that was asked, I would say, sometimes you can find a role within your org that is perfect for a generalist. So perhaps there's more of a Chief of Staff role that you need, or that your founder needs, or that your CEO needs. 

[00:14:03] Mary Beech: Sometimes you can support their transition to a more specialized role, you know, we had an individual on a team in a company I was at that I could tell she had something special in her in photo shoot production and in the management of the creative process. She didn't have any experience, but that's where she was really naturally good at it. So giving her more training in that arena, mentoring outside courses so that that individual can chart their path into something that's more specialized. 

[00:14:30] Mary Beech: But often you just have to be honest, is losing them maybe actually the best thing for them? Would it be better for them to move someplace where they can be fulfilled, where they can find another place that they can be a generalist? 

[00:14:41] Mary Beech: And keeping them may just prolong the inevitable and actually create negative feeling on both sides, and so taking action before you end up in a situation where there's hard feelings or anger or team disappointment, it's again, important to think beyond that one person to the health of the company and the team, what is actually right for that organization?

[00:15:02] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I could not agree more. I think the point that you made, Mary, that there's different points in time where your expertise and what drives you is of value in an organization. 

[00:15:14] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I think we look at things like where retention as it should always be low, but sometimes it's okay for things to evolve and it's really about us knowing within us what drives us and what we wanna do. 

[00:15:27] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Does that person wanna be more specialized or do they love the fact that they are a generalist?

[00:15:31] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Do they like that stage where they have their hands and everything?

[00:15:33] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And having those conversations with our team members allows us to calibrate with what you were describing. Do I put more time and effort and investment into helping them to be a specialist, or is that not serving us or them? 

[00:15:46] Mary Beech: I think sometimes as leaders, we wanna say, especially at big moments where companies are transitioning or changing,  "Everything's gonna stay the same! Don't worry, we went public, but it's gonna be just like it was before", or "We now have private equity owners, but it's gonna stay exactly the same".

[00:16:00] Mary Beech: It's not.

[00:16:01] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Right. 

[00:16:01] Mary Beech: It's not gonna stay the same if you've tripled your top line, if you've become private equity backed, if you've become a public company, whatever the change is, things are going to change. And the worst thing you can do is placate everybody and tell them that it's gonna be the same versus saying, "It's changed. Here are the new expectations. This is the way it's going to be now". 

[00:16:21] Mary Beech: Some people are gonna wanna stay on the bus, some people are gonna wanna get off the bus and go find a place that's similar to the way it was before. It doesn't mean bad and good. 

[00:16:28] Mary Beech: The past is not good, and the future is not bad. It's just different.

[00:16:31] Mary Beech: And I think recognizing that ourselves, which is hard to do as a leader 'cause we do have this desire to keep the special parts, but sometimes the special parts have to become new special parts. 

[00:16:42] Mary Beech: It's hard though. I feel for this person.

[00:16:44] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah, and I think there's a boundary, especially in an environment like we're in right now, where people feel a scarcity around opportunity and job security that people might pretend to be what you need them to be.

[00:16:56] Mary Beech: Yeah.

[00:16:57] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And that's where sometimes you start to pick up on the performance issues, is we are changing, they don't wanna lose their job. It's not like you have enough to necessarily fire them right now, but you can start to see where it's not going in the same direction, and that's where I think the conversation also comes into play.

[00:17:14] Mary Beech: For sure.

[00:17:15] Abigail Charlu: Some tough but important conversations to be had, right? And to both of your points, it ultimately is about the right fit for both the individual, the team, and the organization.

[00:17:24] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: That's right.

[00:17:25] Abigail Charlu: Another leader shared: "I was promoted and now manage someone who used to be my peer. They're underperforming, but I'm worried that taking action will hurt our relationship and my credibility with the team. How should I navigate this?"

[00:17:41] Mary Beech: So I would say not taking action will hurt your credibility even more. 

[00:17:45] Mary Beech: If that person is underperforming, everybody else knows. And your inability to take action, it's gonna hurt your relationship with that individual short term, it may hurt your relationship with the team in the short term, but long term, it's more of service to that individual's career, to their growth, to provide honest and sensitive, but honest and direct feedback and coaching. 

[00:18:11] Mary Beech: It may be that they never have received that before. If you were their peer, you may know, like, listen, they have a leader that doesn't like giving feedback. So I would say rather than bury it, or do their work for them or delegate it to others and create more frustration, you need to have that conversation. 

[00:18:27] Mary Beech: Under performance is felt by everyone and so it's the leader, it's the broader team, the employee themselves. I have times in my career where I'm like, I am not meeting expectations right now, and it feels terrible when that occurs. And so having that direct conversation so that you can put it on the table and then all talk about it, so it's not the secret thing, but you're able to address it with honesty and sensitivity. 

[00:18:51] Mary Beech: It might be a little unpleasant in the short term, but I would say long term, everyone will benefit for sure.

[00:18:57] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I agree. And in this circumstance, because you know they were colleagues, you have more information.

[00:19:03] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Sometimes we have a better sense of our colleagues' performance than even the boss does. So I do think this is one where you don't really wait. 

[00:19:10] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Now, whether you're taking an action and doing a job elimination or managing that performance, like those are obviously the nuances that you've to figure out, but I do think that when you do get promoted into the role, this would be an example of one where I would move faster and I'd be a little bit more aggressive because the team's gonna be watching for what are you gonna hold them accountable for, and what type of leader are you? 

[00:19:34] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Because sometimes the reason we don't is we're not fully stepping into our leadership. 

[00:19:40] Mary Beech: That's a great point. 

[00:19:41] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: We're feeling awkward, we just got the promotion, how are my colleagues feeling about it? And that's political sensitivity, like you really are right that people are gonna have all sorts of feelings so you're being careful because of that. But as you said, Mary, that doesn't mean it necessarily leads to a better outcome for the team or necessarily even a good reflection on you as the leader, that you saw it and you didn't address it.

[00:20:03] Mary Beech: I think one of the hardest things in career progression is when you get promoted at an existing company. Moving from company to company is hard for a lot of other reasons, but you have physical markers that something has changed, you're showing up at a new space every day, you have new colleagues, everything says to you 'I am in a different job'. 

[00:20:22] Mary Beech: When you are at the same company, often sitting at the same desk, or in the same remote space and now you are asked to elevate up it can be incredibly difficult to acknowledge what is different now, and for your peers and your directs and everyone else to acknowledge what is different.

[00:20:37] Mary Beech: So you almost have to spend more time deciding how are you gonna show up differently tomorrow than you did in the days prior? 

[00:20:44] Mary Beech: And I think in terms of managing people, that's hard enough. If now you're managing peers, absolutely, you have to put a plan together for what that looks like, and I think performance management, coaching, should be part of that from day one, because that's what high performing leaders do. And saying "But I can't do that with my peers" would be the exact opposite of what you would do if you had walked into a brand new company. You'll be like, "I'm a leader of a team now. I have to give coaching to get the best out of people".

[00:21:11] Mary Beech: So the fact that you might be hiding that because you just don't wanna deal with the situation of coaching a peer would be a tremendous disservice to you and to that team.

[00:21:20] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Right. And it almost undermines your promotion, they're like, well, why did they get it if they're not bringing me any value? But you're not doing it because you're trying to be appropriate, right?

[00:21:28] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So it's like colluding with itself. 

[00:21:30] Mary Beech: Absolutely.

[00:21:32] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah. And I was thinking, one of the conversations we sometimes don't have when we're careful in these types of situations is, "This is how I lead, this is how I manage, this is what I expect. What do you need?" 

[00:21:43] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: That is the type of conversation I would jump into real fast. You're using the word, "I am now the boss, I'm now the leader and I care". 

[00:21:51] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Like, it's not one or the other, but you're establishing that you're changing into a new dynamic with them.

[00:21:56] Abigail Charlu: You know, so much of this conversation and the angle we're approaching it, which is we want to care for the individual and for the work, right, it involves having that competency around feedback and directness. So I'm just curious from both of your perspectives, what's your advice on how, when we need to have that conversation, what does feedback look like, how does that fall into the performance management process?

[00:22:22] Mary Beech: The company where I am right now, we're starting a training session next week around delivering feedback for the manager level. And it's interesting, as we were learning about our team members that were going to be receiving this, everybody was like, "Could I get the training too?" 

[00:22:36] Mary Beech: Because I don't think it matters what level you are as an individual, we all always feel like we could get better at delivering feedback. Like I don't know that I will ever be done at being good at delivering feedback and that is both in my professional and in my personal life where I'm still learning how to impart feedback to my spouse and to my children. 

[00:22:56] Mary Beech: I think it's something we always need to work on, and again, it's very easy to say, "We're too busy to give feedback", or "There's too many fires to put out to give feedback." 

[00:23:06] Mary Beech: So I always try to make it not a written part, but always part of a performance touch base. How do you in a performance touch base impart something that is feedback oriented, whether or not it's direct, I observed this or not. 

[00:23:19] Mary Beech: And then when you observe something that needs coaching, put a chat through teams and get that person on the phone in the next hour. I think the more time you delay, of like, 'Oh, I'm gonna see them next week and I'll reference that thing they did last Monday', it's lost. The person, A, doesn't remember it, and B, is incredibly frustrated that you've sat with this thing for seven days and not shared it with them.

[00:23:41] Mary Beech: So trying to do both those things just mentally in your head, saying, 'Is there anything that I wanna coach this individual on, on a weekly basis?', and then also just when you see things that either relate back to that coaching or something that needs addressing in that moment, just doing it.

[00:23:55] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I agree, I think sometimes we hold back because we don't want it to hurt the relationship, but if you do it because you really want the person to be able to succeed and perform better, people can feel that, and that is relationship strengthening. 

[00:24:09] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I think we get confused around that because even if somebody has an emotional reaction to feedback, obviously giving positive feedback is very easy, it's the more constructive feedback that we hesitate on, even if they have feelings about it, it makes them feel badly about themselves, they're embarrassed, they're defensive, they feel shame, that's okay. 

[00:24:27] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: You're allowed to have your feelings, right? And that doesn't mean you're a bad person because you caused somebody to have feelings.

[00:24:33] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: You didn't cause them to have feelings. They're having their feelings.

[00:24:35] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: You're doing your job to set them up for success and being responsible as a manager and somebody accountable, as you were saying, Abby, for the work, that is a big part of leadership, we have to get stuff done. 

[00:24:45] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: You're being responsible for that.

[00:24:47] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: The other thing that was coming to mind for me too, it's like what makes it easier is sometimes the stuff that happens all the way back, like before that. It's like, what's the on-ramp to feedback? 

[00:24:56] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Do I know how to communicate with this person? Do I know what drives them? Have we had some dialogue to get to know each other? 

[00:25:04] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Relationship expectations, I think sometimes, and I know I am a culprit of this because we move very fast, that's kind of how I'm wired, and so I think things are clear, or I don't even have time to fully go through the whole thing, and I just give a nugget of it. Then it's like there was an expectation misalignment, or expectations weren't clear, and then you're disappointed and then the person feels badly, but they didn't know. 

[00:25:26] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And then the other thing that I really like to do if it's not more close to the moment as you described Mary, 'cause a lot of us do either sit on it or just say I don't have time, is then when you have your next one-to-one is how do you calibrate with where the person's at? 

[00:25:39] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So like, "Hey, I just wanna check in. How are you doing?" 

[00:25:42] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: You can do the more general and see what they bring to the table, or if you know you wanna be a little bit more targeted, "I'd love to talk about how this project or this situation's going", and see what they think.

[00:25:52] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Because what they think then becomes your starting point of what to build on, 'cause you're getting a sense of what their self-awareness is around their performance, and that I think is usually a helpful way for us to enter into it because the fear is like, I'm gonna say something that's gonna land really hard. And now you know, well, is it gonna land really hard, or they are already being hard on themself, they already know it, or they don't really see it and I'm gonna have to be a little bit more direct?

[00:26:13] Mary Beech: That's true. I think a lot of times we are harder on ourselves, beating ourselves up about one thing, but there's actually something else that would be like, "Oh, that's the area you want me to focus on, great". 

[00:26:24] Mary Beech: I remember a very dramatic moment earlier in my career where I went to a coaching session with my HR generalist, you know, he'd asked me to come to the table with a list of the things that I needed to work on. And I had a list typed up, printed out, and he very dramatically tore it up and he said "It doesn't matter what you think, it's these things that other people think". 

[00:26:44] Mary Beech: And when I took the list and I was like, "Well, this stuff is all much easier than what I had set myself for myself!" I didn't think he expected it. He's like, "You were like buoyant going out of the room" I was like, 'cause I had like 19 things on my list. I'm a little bit of a demanding person on myself. And it was like these three things. 

[00:26:59] Mary Beech: And listen, they were softer skill side, 'cause that's always been where I've had areas of opportunity. So they were hard, but to just look at this, listen and go, this has been identified, support has been identified to help me with these areas, I'm not here tackling this on my own, was actually, as dramatic as it was, it was very freeing to see that, this is what the company values, this is where they want me to put my effort and they're gonna help me get there.

[00:27:20] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Ah, that's awesome. It's also hilarious.

[00:27:23] Mary Beech: It was very. Oh, the early two thousands!

[00:27:26] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: It does feel very theatrical, though.

[00:27:29] Mary Beech: It was very theatrical. It might or might not have been an entertainment company, so we'll just put it out there. 

[00:27:33] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Uhhuh, I gotcha.

[00:27:36] Abigail Charlu: What a great story though, I love it. Our last leader shared: "I know someone isn't working out, but my boss really likes them and isn't ready to let go. How much permission do I actually need to act, and how do I balance my gut instinct with the broader leadership team's hesitation?"

[00:27:56] Mary Beech: So how much permission you have to act really does depend on your situation. So let's put that to the side for one moment. I would say that in that situation, it's often easy to label it as political or that person is favored, and this has happened to me before. 

[00:28:12] Mary Beech: I always try to make a moment and unpack what does my boss and leader, or the leadership more generally, actually value and see in that employee that maybe I don't? And really making sure that I understand that and not just chalk it up as my boss likes and has a soft spot in their heart for this person, and so they're not able to see their flaws. 

[00:28:31] Mary Beech: There likely is something that has endeared that employee to them. Maybe they're willing to jump in on things when no one else will. Maybe they bring something to the table in terms of a set of skills that this leader doesn't see in anyone else at the company. So that won't necessarily change your assessment that this employee is not right for the role or not of service to your organization, but it'll help you ensure that leadership understands that those aspects and that that work that they value won't be lost if that employee is gone, so that you can go back to the conversation with a plan, and make a compelling case of "I know that you value X because of these traits. I hear those concerns, I have a plan for how to mitigate those concerns while still taking action, and here's why I have to take action." 

[00:29:17] Mary Beech: So I think your leaders and your boss will feel heard. They'll feel that you actually took the time to understand and didn't just make a gut call, and that you have a plan for, okay, this is what's gonna happen, you have a number of side projects that this person always jumped up for. We're still going to jump for those balls and this is how we'll address 'em with the team. Or, you really see the skill and no one else has this skill, I think you don't know that this person over here is ready for that and we just haven't been able to give them that time. 

[00:29:42] Mary Beech: So it will allow you to really ensure that you can go above and beyond for leadership and instill delivering what's important to them, while taking the actions that you need to take for the broader team.

[00:29:53] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: The thing that really resonated with me, Mary, of how you described that, is you're trying to separate out the work from the person. That is such an unlock, because let's just say we wanna be practical about it, there is an emotional part to relationships at work, kind of just like family dynamics, we have some of that stuff that can come up in org, so I think we'll go to that piece too. 

[00:30:16] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: But this piece around what makes them nervous about this person has the history, they've done this for a while, they know this, like that fear response, I love that you proactively get at that, 'cause that should then help to separate what part of this is about the concern about the work getting done versus the relationship with the person. 

[00:30:37] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So that's brilliant. I love it. I'm gonna just throw another flavor, 'cause again, we're in some ways just hypothesizing about this, so another hypothesis is, let's say the person's really good at managing up.

[00:30:51] Mary Beech: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:52] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So they just know how to talk the talk to leadership, but they either don't work that hard or they're not that good at it, they're just masterful at upward management. Okay, so if I was gonna have to put a positive flavor on that, if they do that and it serves the team, the clients, the agenda, okay, have them be the spokesperson, right?

[00:31:14] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So that'd be an example of like, how do you get what people are seeing as what they're good at to benefit you and the team? 

[00:31:22] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: If they do that though in a way that undermines their colleagues or undermines you, that's then a red flag for me. That's totally different. If it's their agenda and serving them only, that is no bueno. So that's a no for me. 

[00:31:36] Mary Beech: Your point about separating the role from the work, it puts that into words perfectly. I do think the relationship and managing up thing really does happen, and honestly for me was not something I necessarily put a lot of value on. Again, I'm someone who's struggled in my career with the softer skills. I'm very good at the work, but the softer skills took a little longer for me to develop.

[00:31:55] Mary Beech: And so sometimes when I saw others that were so good at that, I just was like, yeah, but they're not actually paddling under the water. There's no there, But actually there's something real there that's super useful in sales, super useful in client relationships, and any type of situation in which you need to be persuasive, and so when I stopped viewing it as that is not actual work, it is work. 

[00:32:18] Mary Beech: I had to do rotations when I was at the Walt Disney Company and when I had to be in sales, it was the hardest work I've ever done, because it doesn't come naturally. And so when we don't place value on something that someone brings to the table, because it's not something we can do, it's a very dangerous thing. So I do think assessing that and saying, okay, maybe there is a role for them that isn't maybe what they're doing today, but allows them to use those strengths for you, for the team, for the organization, but isn't maybe asking them to do something where they're not able to lean in. 

[00:32:45] Mary Beech: And I'm with you if they're undermining, yeah. I have no patience for politics, so...

[00:32:49] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Me too.

[00:32:50] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So one of the ways we like to close is we believe that all of us are here to make a difference, and the way we think about it is break patterns that have perpetuated maybe the ones that have been difficult for us or that we observe as difficult for others. So Mary, how would you describe the pattern that you believe you're here to break as a leader?

[00:33:10] Mary Beech: You know, I think it's changed throughout the course of my career, what I need at different moments, and I think right now in a high growth organization, I'm someone who's comfortable having a hundred percent of the information. 

[00:33:22] Mary Beech: If I had my druthers, I would prepare a memo on every topic that I was asked to weigh in on, having done all the data analysis and put a memo forth really well thought out, probably skip a meeting, 'cause the interpersonal side, again, more of a struggle for me. So let me send you a memo. You're gonna think, oh my gosh, this woman's brilliant, say yes to it and we move on. 

[00:33:40] Mary Beech: But we move too fast today for that. And so I am getting more comfortable in leading a broad organization, the other changes, when you're a specialist, you know a hundred percent of your area. I now oversee things that I have direct experience in, I've done for 20 years, and I oversee a lot of areas that are either new to me or, rather, I've managed them for a while, but I don't have experience.

[00:34:03] Mary Beech: So I'm never gonna have a hundred percent of the information. So that initial instinct to go away and turn off the computer and be alone to think about something, it's still there, even though I need to respond. So I go with gut now and just give myself that permission to put the gut instinct out there. If it continues, you know, sometimes it's just a gut, people move on, that's what they needed in order to make a direction. 

[00:34:26] Mary Beech: If I truly don't feel comfortable making a decision, I will say that, and say I need to think about it a little bit more, but I try to do that less. For me it's just more about getting comfortable with that gut even if in the back of my mind, that deep research and analytics would always come first, the moving fast.

[00:34:43] Mary Beech: So that's been the more recent side of things, 'cause again, I think as a maybe more of an analytic and introverted person than I let on, I've had to come to terms with how to merge those two worlds.

[00:34:55] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Hmm. What I love about what you said is they both exist, like they both coexist and how you do manage both speed and complexity with desire to be thorough and have more expertise in something. So I think it's the blending, like I think that's always, one of the things we grapple with in life is, is it this or is it that? Or is it both?

[00:35:16] Mary Beech: Yes, absolutely. 

[00:35:18] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Mary, thank you so much.

[00:35:19] Mary Beech: Thank you.

[00:35:20] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: This was like, I mean, this is a tough one that we like to avoid talking about because it feels like, we're gonna talk about getting rid of people, we don't have a lot of heart, but thank you for helping to demonstrate through who you are as leader, and through your words, that there's so much thoughtfulness that goes into this it's a really important and healthy part of leading.

[00:35:40] Mary Beech: Thank you for having me. 

[00:35:46] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: As I reflect on the conversation Mary and I had, I have a few things I'm taking away from it. One under performance isn't a relationship issue, it's a team issue. As leaders, it is our job to protect the business and our team, not to preserve just one relationship. When we delay decisions, everyone pays the cost. 

[00:36:08] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Number two, be very intentional about which people you spend your time with. Our time is our most precious asset and we have to think about our time as a portfolio we manage in regards to how much time we spend coaching, how much time we spend with people who are struggling and who that's at the expense of, especially when we lose attention and care for our strongest performers. 

[00:36:32] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Three, as your business evolves, not everybody is still gonna fit. What might have worked when you needed people to operate more cross-functionally may not work as well when you need people to be deeper specialists. Sometimes it's the deep specialists that no longer are working, because you need more to be cohesive across the different functions.

[00:36:53] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Sometimes the most caring thing we can do as leaders is to be clear about the new expectations and to realize it's not gonna work for everybody. Fourth, it's about giving clear and timely feedback, and that actually gives you more credibility and reinforces that you're the leader for your team. Whether you've been promoted over a peer or your boss has an attachment to somebody you considered and not be performing, naming what you see with kindness and specificity is needed to strengthen your credibility, it helps to make you a stronger team, and it gives that individual a chance to adjust and potentially be even more successful, or to do what's right for the team and let them go. 

[00:37:39] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: On Let's Talk, People, what we love to do most is help you unpack your toughest people management challenges. So send them in. Send in the situations you're struggling with, the questions that you have about leading your teams, and we will anonymize them and give you answers and our advice on an upcoming episode.

[00:38:03] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: You can write in an email or attach a little audio message with your scenario to abigail@arosegroup.com. That's Abigail, A-B-I-G-A-I-L, at Arose Group, A-R-O-S-E-G-R-O-U-P.com.

[00:38:22] Emily Frieze-Kemeny:  Thanks for joining today's episode of Let's Talk, People. For more info and insights, visit arosegroup.com and find me, Emily Frieze-Kemeny, on LinkedIn and Instagram. If you're enjoying the show, please follow, share on social and leave a rating or review in your podcast app- it helps other listeners to discover us.

[00:38:43] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Well, that's a wrap, friends. Until next time when we come together to talk people.