Let's Talk, People: Episode 31

STOP HATING ON OFFICE POLITICS

ELEVATE YOURSELF AND YOUR TEAM

[00:00:00] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Hi, I'm Emily Frieze-Kemeny, host of Let's Talk, People, where leaders come to bridge humanity and profitability. Informed by a couple decades of work as a head of talent and leadership development, I'm here to amplify leaders so they can exalt everyone and everything they touch. Are you ready? 'Cause it's about to get real.

[00:00:28] Let's talk, people.

[00:00:35] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I'm really excited to have Audrey Greenberg on Let's Talk, People.  

[00:00:38] Audrey is a life sciences executive, an investor, board member, venture builder, who has a proven record of creating and scaling companies. She is one of the leading voices in Biopharma. Audrey founded and served as business development officer of the Center for Breakthrough Medicines, which was the largest and most comprehensive cell and gene therapies contract development and manufacturing organization that was acquired by SK Pharma Tech Co.

[00:01:07] Prior to founding CBM, Audrey spent two decades in private equity, investment banking and public accounting. She is currently a venture partner and chair of business development at Mayo Clinic, leading Mayo Venture Partners in translating world class research into market shaping companies.

[00:01:27] Today with Audrey, we are gonna dive into all things office politics, which I know so many of us have feelings about, which is why we are gonna change our relationship with it so that you can think about the relationships you have as work, as a vehicle to help you and your team get recognized and move ahead in your careers for all the amazing contributions and impact you are making.

[00:01:52] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Audrey, I am very excited to have you on Let's Talk, People.

[00:01:56] Audrey Greenberg: Thank you so much for having me. I'm very happy to be doing this with you.

[00:02:00] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Well, we have a lot to unpack and I didn't even know how we put this in one bucket. It's like the intersection of our desire to grow our careers and advance and get promoted, and the fact that often that sits within a political landscape.

[00:02:14] Audrey Greenberg: So true.

[00:02:15] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So to start, maybe we'll personalize it to begin. What do you feel, Audrey, is a memory that you have from your career about a political dynamic that you had to learn the hard way?

[00:02:27] Audrey Greenberg: Oh goodness. I think early on maybe professionals don't realize it's not all about just working hard and performance. There's a personal and relationship aspect to work.

[00:02:39] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah.

[00:02:39] Audrey Greenberg: So you have to get buy-in before meetings through social means. I would call that pre-wiring the room, right? You're never going into a board meeting without having talked to every single board member if you're trying to get something approved. So that's the first thing.

[00:02:53] I think the second thing is you really wanna make your impact visible in writing, so making sure that you have proactive communication and your verbal and written communication style is incredibly important. So I advise all young professionals to definitely get training in that area if you're not good at it. 

[00:03:15] And then other people will take credit for your work. That happens over and over repeatedly, and so finding a way to claim credit in a politically appropriate way, like "Glad that landed when I raised it in our meeting and I wasn't sure it would get traction" or something along those lines. So knowing how to navigate things that are beyond the quality of your work to make progress in organization.

[00:03:42] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah, I really appreciate that. I think there's that really fine line between your boss is the person who sponsors you and so you can't undermine them or try to steal the limelight. And there's varying degrees of ego that can go along with those personas. And to your point, Audrey, of how do you appropriately get a little bit of the light that you deserve so that you don't get stuck. So I think that's such a tricky one, and I think one that many of us had to learn the hard way.

[00:04:07] Audrey Greenberg: Very true, very true. It's never easy and each person is very different and you change over time.

[00:04:13] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah.

[00:04:14] Audrey Greenberg: So you just always have to stay fresh and get outside perspective mentorship and sponsorship as you mentioned, so that you can become aware of the political environment around you, which can blow up in your face. 

[00:04:26] So being aware of what's happening is important.

[00:04:29] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Totally. Do you feel like when you look back, you had to learn it just by doing from the getting it right and not getting it right, or do you feel like there was a person or people along the way who clued you in off the record, "Hey, know that's the deal with this person" or "Watch when you're in this type of a room"?

[00:04:44] Audrey Greenberg: No, there definitely was people around. I mean, look, experiential learning trumps all other forms, but it's also good to have people telling you about landmines that can happen along the way, and specific to certain companies or people that you work with.

[00:04:57] So when I was a banker, at a pretty young age in my early twenties, I had a managing director that I worked for, another woman who pulled me aside and really taught me how to get promoted. And don't ask if you're ready, make them ask if they can afford to lose you.

[00:05:14] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Mmm, I love it. 

[00:05:16] Audrey Greenberg: You have to prove your worth, but then you can demand your market value and feel qualified to ask and receive, not only promotion, but raises. So my advice always is, and this is what she told me, act one level above where you're currently hired at,

[00:05:33] so always be performing at a higher level and oh, very important, track your impact. So make sure you have that list of all your accomplishments on the ready, on the go, and track it along the way so you don't have to go back and redo it. And map that power structure at your work.

[00:05:49] She taught me how to go about influencing outcomes and to build alliances early. Sounds like Survivor, but in some ways it is!

[00:05:58] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: No, seriously, I worked for a company once where it was actually written up that it was like Game of Thrones, and I was like, yep. Pretty much.

[00:06:07] Audrey Greenberg: One of my most recent companies, someone wrote an entire protocol on how to interact with the chairman of our board. I mean, it was a 30 page document of how to present to him. So there are people that are influencers, that you just have to know how to interact with them, and it's important.

[00:06:24] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And I find, Audrey, that this really upsets people. When you give them this talk of like, "Hey, this is what it's really like to get ahead. And yeah, the fact that you're really amazing at what you do is not enough", it really upsets and pisses people off.

[00:06:39] Audrey Greenberg: Yeah, it's interesting. I think young in your career, maybe people are more malleable. But then you get to your thirties and your forties and you're successful and you start at a new place and someone pulls you aside and says, "Hey, when you send that email, make sure you start with bullets and then end with prepositional phrases" or, you know, whatever the specifics are. And, you're sort of like, what?

[00:06:59] But you know what, how you communicate, whether it's executive style, bullet point, format, how you present to someone, their pet peeves, little things throw people off. And so knowing those things in advance are really important.

[00:07:12] And then I would say little social fun facts about people goes a long way and interesting points of connection.

[00:07:18] So if you're raising capital, you're going to a meeting with an investor, don't just know what they're focused on, but where do they live? Where do they go to school? Who do you have in common with them? Knowing them from the inside out can make a big difference too.

[00:07:31] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: It's so true because that goes back to your point about the relational part of work. Yes, you have to be competent and show results and be making an impact, but that isn't often enough because when you choose to promote somebody, a lot of the time, it means you're gonna be working more closely together. The person who's choosing to promote you is like, I want this person in my inner circle. I want them on my team. I want them with me when I go to a client. That ability to really connect, we don't admit how that really factors into decisions.

[00:08:03] Audrey Greenberg: I agree. And you have to have, I mentioned the sponsors and mentors,

[00:08:08] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah.

[00:08:08] Audrey Greenberg: sponsors are the people that will say nice things about you when you're not in the room and mentors pull you aside and explain how to talk in that room. And so you need both. And you're right, what you said is your boss ultimately is your sponsor, but they're sponsors outside of your office too.

[00:08:24] Once you get to a certain level and you're trying to get on boards or you're trying to be an advisor, or maybe you have a consulting business or you're building your own business, those sponsors are going to be what generates more revenue or more profit or more sales or help you enter new markets, so sponsorship is very important too. 

[00:08:42] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: That's so true, and I think it's also really helpful for people to understand the difference of sponsors and mentors and somebody could be both, like it could dual hat and wear different roles, whereas you said they could even be your boss too. But I agree that they act in different ways.

[00:08:58] Often there's mentoring programs and there can be a formality to that, and sometimes people are like, "Let me volunteer to be your mentor". You can ask somebody too. How does that play out politically with a sponsor? Can you go after one or do they choose you only?

[00:09:12] Audrey Greenberg: It's a good question. I mean, I think it is mostly them choosing you, but I've seen it where someone will come to me and say, "Hey, can you advocate for me for this particular thing?" or someone has outperformed and then they'll come to me and ask for sponsorship.

[00:09:30] A lot of it is introductions and advocating.

[00:09:32] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah.

[00:09:33] Audrey Greenberg: A lot of times you'll get a cold call, "I see you're connected to so and so, what do you think of them? I'm considering hiring them" and that person doesn't even know I'm their sponsor. And by the way, that's a good little tidbit is go back to that person and let them know you're building political capital because you're going back to them and saying, "Hey, I got one for you".

[00:09:52] So you never know when they'll help you back, sometimes it is tit for tat.

[00:09:55] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I love that, it's so true. It's like looking to help somebody and then make sure that they know how you're supporting them. Again, back to the, sometimes we don't promote ourselves. That's a slick way to do an act of kindness and make sure it's visible. 

[00:10:10] Audrey Greenberg: Yeah, exactly.

[00:10:11] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Abby, we've got some questions. We'll turn it to you to get into them.

[00:10:15] Abigail Charlu: Let's do it. Our first question, a manager said, "I have someone on my team who wants to grow, but I'm unsure how much I can push their name forward without risking political capital. How do I strike the right balance?"

[00:10:30] Audrey Greenberg: Yeah, that's a tough one. I mean, look, I hate to say it like this, but I do put my neck on the line a lot for the people that work for me. I think I'm rare in that way. I notice the companies that I work for, I would advocate strongly, almost to my own detriment. So you do have to be careful, because if there's someone that is controversial, we'll say, and you may feel like they have a better reputation than someone else, it can be difficult to navigate that situation.

[00:11:02] But I think the ways that you can be helpful are allow people to experience firsthand how great this person is, so invite them to meetings with you. I'll give them little chances to step up and make it known throughout the organization why this person is great.

[00:11:17] So I think that's the first thing, is giving them opportunity to stand up and perform.

[00:11:21] And then second, allowing them to sit in and watch you and learn from you and figure out how they can participate. And then that's just within the organization. And I would say outside the organization, inviting them to conferences, allowing them to talk on panels, helping them build their own brand and their own capital.

[00:11:38] So I think those are three good ways that you can help sponsor and support someone without really putting your neck on the line and allowing them to step up on their own behalf.

[00:11:48] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah, I think that's really important because what's implied is that when I read into what the person's asking is, the person on their team's not known. So I think what you're saying, Audrey, which I totally agree with, you're trying to amp their visibility so that you're not the sole voice, or you're not fighting against perceptions that are not based in reality 

[00:12:08] Audrey Greenberg: And also it's interesting how, and we see this in every meeting, or at least in my current role, I see this a lot 'cause people are very praise specific. But socializing their value casually, right? Like, "We did this great thing at work, and oh, by the way, Sally was responsible for that. She came up with it."

[00:12:24] So you're casually or socially mentioning why someone's crushing it and framing that success as how it's helping the team. Like, "Look what Sarah did to help us advance our timeline", blah, blah, blah.

[00:12:36] So it's not so obvious that you're promoting them, but you are. And like I said, those bite size leadership opportunities are important too.

[00:12:45] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: What you said that I really appreciate is there's an intentionality.

[00:12:48] Audrey Greenberg: Yeah.

[00:12:48] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And so this is something that I do believe as a leadership skill, how do you shine the light on the people on your team, and as you said, in a slick way. And it's looking for those opportunities of, "Oh, that's so interesting that you brought that up. When so and so was working on it, or when so and so got that win with the client", you kind of just weave it in like it's part of your evidence because you're building a case the same way you would to try to sell anything. You're now trying to sell someone in their career advancement. I think that was such a great way of saying it, and I think we could all find slick ways to do more of that.

[00:13:20] I wonder if the boss doesn't think the person's actually ready. And so they're feeling the pressure to put the person forward because the person wants to be promoted and wants to advance on their team and they care about them and they wanna be a good manager and be nice, but there's a hesitancy. And so I just wanted to just throw in there, if that's there you, then that's where I would actually listen to your intuition a little bit more.

[00:13:48] So if there's something holding you back and it doesn't get solved by those great, very tangible examples you gave Audrey, then the question that's coming up for me is why am I hesitating? Why am I worried about political capital? Is it because I just promoted a bunch of people and it's a really practical timing thing? Or is it because there's still some things that this person does that even though they're an amazing performer, might be undermining their impact or their credibility and I actually need to give them feedback. And I need to give them some guidance and coaching, so that I better set them up for success, as well as I can be taken seriously when I bring somebody forward, that I know what good looks like.

[00:14:25] Audrey Greenberg: Yeah, that's a really good point. And I think as managers and leaders, we really need to pay attention to and spend a lot of time coaching folks.

[00:14:34] We mentioned sponsorship and mentorship, but coaching is a huge part of the job, and not everybody graduates from college ready to be a CEO. And different scenes call for different skill sets and everyone can't be great at everything.

[00:14:48] And we're at an interesting time in the world, right? Everything's changing so quickly with AI and innovation and then there's cash crunch and geopolitical turmoil, and the administration is giving us whiplash, and with all this really dynamic environment, it impacts our work every day and we have to be nimble and the skillset changes. And so being able to coach the people that work for you to rise to the occasion and take advantage of the market and the company opportunity that presents itself in the current state  important.

[00:15:16] And sometimes people have to be coached out or coached into new positions, and hopefully they will rise to the occasion, but that's not always the case. 

[00:15:23] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Totally.

[00:15:24] Abigail Charlu: So good. There's a lot here in this question. There's definitely an art to being able to present your evidence and a case for yourself to be promoted, but as a people manager, we sometimes have a responsibility to do that for others on our team, but then also listening to ourselves and knowing when they're ready and being responsive to the responsibility to our organization.

[00:15:45] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Exactly.

[00:15:45] Abigail Charlu: Our next manager said, "One of my peers hoards information and blocks others from stepping up. It's slowing down succession planning and frustrating my team. What can I do?"

[00:15:57] Audrey Greenberg: There are a lot of control freaks and information hoarders, especially in sales by the way, because if any of the commission based jobs, people are very protective of their territories. And in startups in particular, or big organizations for that matter, board settings, this happens by the way, it's always the same. It's about fear. 

[00:16:16] People are scared and in this dynamic market that we're in, where capital is tight, fear is ever present. So try not to call it out as sabotage, respect where everybody's coming from.

[00:16:28] How I've dealt with this in the past, just say it's the systems gap. How do we get rid of the silos and get people to work together and bypass the problem by building the system around it. 

[00:16:38] So you can have, let's say, shared documents where people are required to update and you review them live in weekly meetings. Or you have cross training and it gives somebody the opportunity. Some people do really love training other people for information sharing purposes. So I would say launching shared docs, having cross training opportunities. And then always, always have leadership reinforce the norms of transparency.

[00:17:03] So if you can have your CEO kick off the quarterly town hall by talking about that, it's all about communication, transparency and access to information. And definitely at the team meetings, continue to call it out. 

[00:17:15] And I would say, you have to be very specific in your communication and you say it directly, but definitely constructively that "I've noticed we have some silos and what would help us open things up" and present it as an idea generating session. And so those that are hoarding information may actually come up with an idea for not doing that and then will end up being the advocate to help improve the process.

[00:17:39] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah, that's so important. I think you just named something that might be underlying, which is that people are scared about the relevance of their role, their team, and it's a bigger thing around safety. 

[00:17:54] Audrey Greenberg: Yeah. 

[00:17:55] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So I think that first of all, in and of itself is such an important nugget of like, whew, what could really be going there and what does silos really mean in my organization?

[00:18:05] And then the other thing, is sometimes I think we as leaders underestimate how much we role model good behavior. So you can't tell your colleague like, "Hey, my team's feeling like, or I'm feeling like you're trying to reserve your relevance by, doing X, Y, and Z", 'cause that obviously is a little too direct for most cultures, I think. But you can role model bringing them in on meetings and updating them proactively on things that maybe you didn't need to. So you start to demonstrate that you are trustworthy, your team is trustworthy.

[00:18:40] And then the other one around this succession piece of it where it almost seems like they're a blocker to other people being able to grow because of how they hoard power, even though we wouldn't use that word, that's what it is. We would be able to say, "Okay, we have a new project, or we have a new initiative, or we have a challenge, who are a few people from your team and my team that we might be able to engage to give them some exposure to help us get it done". 

[00:19:05] So again, you're subtly role modeling it and drawing it in and whether they get it or don't get it, it's like you're teaching the behavior by doing.

[00:19:13] Audrey Greenberg: Yeah. Walk the walk.

[00:19:14] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Exactly.

[00:19:16] Abigail Charlu: Another leader said, "I was offered a promotion to a director, but the pay bump feels out of sync with the new responsibilities. How do I negotiate without seeming ungrateful?" 

[00:19:29] Audrey Greenberg: Oh boy, that's a good one. And this is happening a lot now. Jobs are being eliminated, people are being asked to take on more.

[00:19:35] I would say thank you. Always be gracious, right? So the first thing is, "Thank you so much for trusting me, for having high expectations." And express excitement. Energy goes a long way. "I'm excited to get into this and take on these new responsibilities. However, I'd like to revisit the comp."

[00:19:54] And go do some research, there's plenty of recruiter and placement agency studies and research reports accessible so that you can get compensation ranges based on your job responsibilities, and just say, "I'd like my compensation to reflect these expanded responsibilities, and it's based on these market standards and comp structures."

[00:20:13] And it's not about ego.

[00:20:15] This is about clarity on job expectations and being paid what you're worth. And I do try to tell every leader that I talk to about this, is that if you negotiate for your team, you can negotiate for yourself.

[00:20:28] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yes. 

[00:20:30] Audrey Greenberg: So advocate for yourself as much as you advocate for other people, get those benchmarks and use a shared success frame, like, "Let's set this up so we all can be successful. Let's do this together and so that I can hit the ground running and be excited". 

[00:20:44] And then maybe also ask for levers. So in terms of equity and bonus and comp review every six months, if it's not something that can happen that day, maybe you can reassess every six months.

[00:20:56] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah, I totally agree with all of that. Evidence-based always helps. And I think that there's a difference between someone not paying you your worth and affordability,

[00:21:09] Audrey Greenberg: That's true.

[00:21:10] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Right? I like that point of "Okay, well what would be some goals?"

[00:21:13] Let's say you're the manager now, you're the leader and it's somebody on your team coming to you and you can't afford it. Or they haven't demonstrated enough growth, or relative to others in the company, you can't get them to where they wanna be. It's like, how do we develop a plan to get there? And that fits with what you were saying, Audrey, about this success of the team or looking at it in a broader context, because again, often where I see leaders do it wrong is, for me to pay you more, I gotta take away from your colleague. That is so inappropriate, that way of talking or reflecting it, because then it just makes you feel badly for asking to be paid what you believe is your worth. 

[00:21:52] I don't like that mentality at all. So I love the way that you thought about that.

[00:21:56] Audrey Greenberg: Yeah, I try to come from abundance and not scarcity. That's such a scarcity mentality. It's like, we only have so much. No, no, no, no. There's enough for everyone, here's what you have to do to get there.

[00:22:06] And by the way, you know what else is interesting? And we've both seen this, is in merger situations, because there's a lot of mergers going on right now, and a lot of time there's comp adjustments with mergers and salary bans, and job titles have to be the same and whatnot.

[00:22:20] And so there's opportunity there I think, in addition to getting cultural alignment, but for folks to bring to bear market statistics and understand that, obviously with a merger, it's a bigger organization, which usually salaries are correlated with the revenue of an entity.

[00:22:39] And so make sure that you have all the facts and figures.

[00:22:42] Abigail Charlu: Super important. We don't talk enough about negotiation, right?

[00:22:46] Audrey Greenberg: Yes, so true. And by the way, the best time to negotiate is before you start the job.

[00:22:51] And also, it's not always just about cash. So equity, if you are in a company that you think is gonna be worth something, if there's not enough cash and there's budget constraints, I always push for equity.

[00:23:05] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I agree.

[00:23:05] Audrey Greenberg: And make sure you read the fine print on the equity and get a good lawyer, and so you understand the terms of the equity and what happens at exit. 

[00:23:12] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I agree, and then sometimes things we think we can take for granted, we can't. Like how much flexibility is in the role, how strong are the benefits? Is there flex on vacation, PTO, right?

[00:23:24] I think that's a really good point, Audrey. And then another place, where we maybe can be creative is on titling. I think that sometimes if you can't give as much on the money, how do you help someone to feel pride through what they call the role?

[00:23:38] I mean, I happen to be one of those people who's extremely liberal about that, of course within reason, because I'm like, you know what? If it makes you feel good about yourself and I can't pay you more, awesome. Say you're a blah, blah, blah. Again, within reason.

[00:23:50] Audrey Greenberg: It's interesting though some people are really stingy with titles. I find that so odd, by the way.

[00:23:56] It costs you nothing, it makes the person feel so good. It gives them leverage with the outside world. So I find this particularly weird with outward facing roles when we're asking people to bring in more revenue.

[00:24:09] Someone would rather talk to someone with a heavier title, you might as well give them a heavier title. And it's good for everyone.

[00:24:16] So don't be so stingy people.

[00:24:18] Abigail Charlu: Right, and it's not as if there's some standard about role titles across the board either.

[00:24:23] Audrey Greenberg: I know. One of my friends had a title, Chief Metaverse Officer. I was like, wow!

[00:24:28] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Exactly, you're like, you go.

[00:24:31] Abigail Charlu: Whatever that means, let's do it!

[00:24:33] Another leader shared, "I'm great at my job, but I hate office politics. How do I stay true to my values without getting left out of important decisions or opportunities?"

[00:24:44] Audrey Greenberg: Yeah. I mean this assumes that politics are unethical, but politics are politics.

[00:24:50] People do things with people they like and people hate this phrase, 'I wanna hire someone that I would have a beer with'. I mean, whether you like it or not, it's true. 

[00:25:00] And actually I just had a conversation yesterday with someone, we were talking about conferences ' and how you go to these conferences where they often have partnering applications where you set up meetings with people and people have half hour meetings for three days straight. And you know what I find? I get the best deals and I get the best connections when I'm doing the social events.

[00:25:22] And so I do think that in terms of people doing things with people they like, somebody told me yesterday they were in Vegas for a conference and they were at the craps table and they ended up investing in this person's business that was playing craps next to them.

[00:25:34] But that's really how deals happen. It's just what happens.

[00:25:37] My first company that I started in 2001, I brought in our biggest investor that I met at a spa of all places. So I mean, honestly, golf courses, spas, crap tables, whatever it is.

[00:25:50] And so, back to your question. Politics plays into that because there's social politics, work politics, there's control and what happens there, aligning yourselves with people that are powerful, in decision making roles. And it's just how it works, I'm sorry.

[00:26:06] And so it doesn't mean you have to be unethical. I don't think those things are in opposition. I'm highly ethical, I have high standards of how I conduct work, but I understand the game too. 

[00:26:17] And so you gotta play the game, by the way, sometimes it's easier to have political capital in certain cultures than others.

[00:26:23] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Mm.

[00:26:24] Audrey Greenberg: So join an organization with politics that you feel that you could be successful in, or see it as a learning opportunity and then each job, each position, any company that you start or role that you play should be a way for you to achieve some goal that you have at that moment.

[00:26:42] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Okay, I have to ask you, Audrey, 'cause I have a feeling that this will be some evidence of one of your many superpowers, which is around network and relationships and building those connections and getting people to trust you and buy into what you're building.

[00:26:54] Audrey Greenberg: Yeah.

[00:26:55] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: There are people in our network who may be able to help us, even if it's just for advice or guidance and to cultivate relationships and to maybe be a little bit strategic about which relationships you cultivate and which ones you don't have time for, because we only have so many hours in the day. I mean, is there something strategic in this, I wonder?

[00:27:15] Audrey Greenberg: I mean, you definitely should be strategic. But I think for me, I am naturally a people person, and you never know what someone could do to help you. 

[00:27:25] At a conference, let's say for example, outside of when you're at the craps table at the bar and it's serendipitous run-ins, when you're going to go to an event and you have the list of people there, and you know who's going to be there in advance, you do your homework right?

[00:27:40] Figure out who those people are, how they can help you, what they look like. How are you gonna find 'em in the room? Find somebody that might know them that can introduce you, or go up, introduce yourself. That's what I mean by strategic networking. Don't just show up.

[00:27:52] I mean, a lot of times people have name tags on and you can surmise who they are or have your phone with you. You know, I did that on a plane once, actually. That's kind of a funny story.

[00:28:01] But there was someone sitting next to me who, oh, it was on his bag. He put his bag under and I went to the company's website. They only had the handful of employees. I found who he was because he was sitting right next to me.

[00:28:14] And I was raising capital at the time, it was an investment company. And so I looked at all his LinkedIn activity and figured out like what he liked, what he was interested in,

[00:28:23] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Audrey.

[00:28:23] Audrey Greenberg: I know, and I just started engaging with him. He probably thought I was half crazy, but he was also very impressed that I figured out all this information and we ended up staying in touch and actually one of his portfolio companies we ended up doing business with.

[00:28:37] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Wow.

[00:28:37] Audrey Greenberg: So there's just funny things like that. You have to have your spidey sense, like you said, up at all times.  

[00:28:42] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: That's right. You're touching the boundary of my more spiritual side. Sometimes things are not a coincidence.

[00:28:49] But to your point, Audrey, it's that acute sense of noticing who's in my surroundings.

[00:28:56] Audrey Greenberg: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:57] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: The preparation that you described, and again, that same preparation you would do for a conference is the same preparation if you're going into a meeting at work and you're pitching something, is who's in that room? What do they care about, what matters to them? Any intel you can get. The pre-meetings as you had talked about before. So I think there's both, sometimes you just get lucky and it's what you do with the luck, and then it's the how do you make luck happen by preparation.

[00:29:20] Audrey Greenberg: I remember 10 years ago I was at one of my best friends from high school's wedding in Michigan. And you know, I'm one of those people I see Brad Pitt and I'm like, "Eh", but if I see like Warren Buffet, that's Brad Pitt to me. I run up, I'm like, "Warren, Audrey Greenberg. So nice to meet you!" 

[00:29:36] You know, and she told me, some billionaire that worked in real estate, which is what I was tangentially doing at the time, was there. I immediately just went up to him, shook his hand, introduced myself, told him what I was working on. I mean, you have to be fearless sometimes, when it comes to this.

[00:29:48] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah.

[00:29:48] Audrey Greenberg: And people appreciate it, by the way, I think most people do appreciate that connection.

[00:29:53] Abigail Charlu: And it sounds like, taking out some of the ickiness of the political dynamics, is just reframing that it's really just about relationship building.

[00:30:02] Audrey Greenberg: It is. It's about strategic relationship building, particularly with politics in the office, knowing who has control over your destination that you want to achieve, and aligning yourself with those people.

[00:30:17] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah. And aligning to what matters to them.

[00:30:20] Audrey Greenberg: That's right too.

[00:30:21] If you happen to be working for a large company and you are trying to launch a new product, know who's on the board that's going to approve that product. Or how you're going to get funding for it, and who decides that. And then how you're gonna build your team and who's gonna be responsible for deciding who you can hire and when, and getting everyone excited about the idea, bringing them into the process such that they feel like they have a vested interest in it too.

[00:30:51] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Totally agree. All right, so one of the places we like to go as we wrap is we believe that each of us is here to break certain patterns as a leader. 

[00:31:03] So what do you think, Audrey, is the pattern that you feel you're here to break?

[00:31:07] Audrey Greenberg: I think the myth that you either have to be human or high performing.

[00:31:13] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Hmm.

[00:31:14] Audrey Greenberg: I really think you can be both. I have very much a humanistic angle to my work.

[00:31:21] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah. 

[00:31:21] Audrey Greenberg: And, you know, I've done great, big things, billion dollar deals in that approach. Leading billion dollar ventures and showing up for bedtime routines at the same time.

[00:31:32] And so coaching founders through breakdowns and board meetings in the same day, dealing with toddler tantrums and diaper changes while I'm closing a transaction. And presence and performance are not in fact opposites and they really are fuel for each other.

[00:31:50] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Hmm.

[00:31:51] Audrey Greenberg: you can work life integrity, lead with clarity and care, and build ambition and compassion at the same time.

[00:31:59] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I believe in this so much too, but why do you think people don't believe that? Like, what do you think is the myth there, or the old story?

[00:32:07] 'Cause that sounds like "Of course, why couldn't we?"

[00:32:10] But we know that not a lot of people feel that or publicly talk about this.

[00:32:16] Audrey Greenberg: I think the public personas perhaps that people create are the opposite of who they are. 

[00:32:22] I've worked for, and with partners that have those types of personas, but when you get them one-on-one in a room, they're very different.

[00:32:31] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Right.

[00:32:31] Audrey Greenberg: And I think it's a lot of fluffing their feathers or whatever the expression is. And deep down I do strongly believe that people care about other people. Business is business sometimes, but there's always room for humanity and compassion and authenticity.

[00:32:51] Audrey Greenberg: I do find that those leaders that lead that way and employees that engage that way, ultimately have more joy in the workplace and more success.

[00:33:01] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And there's so much research on the relationship between those two things, joy and success.

[00:33:06] It's backed by science, so I could not agree more and I'm so glad there's evidence to back up what you and I know and believe, 

[00:33:14] Emily Frieze-Kemeny:  So that's so important to call out and I really appreciate that.

[00:33:17] Audrey Greenberg: Yeah. Positive energy attracts positive energy. Stay positive, stay focused, be present in every moment.

[00:33:25] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Absolutely. Well, we appreciate you being here, helping us to break it all down from politics to what it really takes to network and build connections and always with high integrity and high performance and fun. 'Cause you role model all of that, Audrey, and we're so grateful to put you out there in the world and to help educate so many people on things that maybe are a bit more subtle to navigate.

[00:33:50] Audrey Greenberg: Thank you so much for having me, and I'm happy to come back anytime.

[00:33:54] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Ah, we will take you up on it! Thanks. 

[00:34:01] We covered a lot of ground. This was such a meaty conversation. Let me try to sum up some of my takeaways. 

[00:34:07] We need to have a combination of sponsors, mentors, and visible moments. Mentors give you the guidance you need, sponsors open the doors when you're not in that room, and both are essential to our career growth. Visibility also needs to be created by ourselves intentionally, it cannot be left to chance. 

[00:34:27] Two, navigating office politics is pretty much a given. The way we frame it is what helps us. It can be something that can be aligned to our values when we look at it as relationship building and creating connection at work. 

[00:34:43] The third thing that stood out to me was really about this idea of how do we negotiate and lead from a place of abundance versus scarcity. So when you negotiate a promotion, to a raise, to title adjustments, it's not selfish. It's about aligning responsibilities and compensation in a way that is fair and equitable.

 [00:35:03] So leaders should avoid the scarcity thinking that can come up and instead, coach our teams towards growth. Come up with evidence using market data, recruiters information, benchmarking to be able to advocate for yourself and your team.

[00:35:18] Frame things as shared success, win-wins, so you're positioning negotiations around what's needed to succeed in the role and to drive results for the organization, and think beyond salary.

[00:35:29] Think about levers that can both retain and recognize people from titles to equity, to bonuses to work life flexibility. Sometimes recognition and opportunity can matter more than the cash. 

[00:35:43] On Let's Talk, People, what we love to do most is help you unpack your toughest people management challenges. So send them in. Send in the situations you're struggling with, the questions that you have about leading your teams, and we will anonymize them and give you answers and our advice on an upcoming episode.

[00:36:05] You can write in an email or attach a little audio message with your scenario to abigail@arosegroup.com. That's Abigail, A-B-I-G-A-I-L at Arose Group A-R-O-S-E-G-R-O-U-P.com.

[00:36:25] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Thanks for joining today's episode of Let's Talk, People. For more info and insights, visit arosegroup.com and find me, Emily Frieze-Kemeny, on LinkedIn and Instagram. If you're enjoying the show, please follow, share on social and leave a rating or review in your podcast app- it helps other listeners to discover us.

[00:36:49] Well, that's a wrap, friends. Until next time when we come together to talk people.