Let's Talk, People: Episode 30

EVOLVE OR BECOME OBSOLETE

WHAT KEEPS LEADERS AHEAD

[00:00:00] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Hi, I'm Emily Frieze-Kemeny, host of Let's Talk, People, where leaders come to bridge humanity and profitability. Informed by a couple decades of work as a head of talent and leadership development, I'm here to amplify leaders so they can exalt everyone and everything they touch. Are you ready? 'Cause it's about to get real.

[00:00:28] Let's talk, people.

[00:00:36] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: It is such a pleasure to have Karen Giberson on Let's Talk, People today. Karen is the President and CEO of the Accessories Council, a nonprofit that represents the hundred billion dollar accessories industry. She leads advocacy, sales, and brand initiatives for the over 350 member companies that span footwear to handbags, jewelry and more.

[00:01:00] Karen is a former Macy's executive trainee and was a QVC leader where she launched high impact initiatives like 'Shoes on Sale' and 'Red Carpet Weekends', blending retail with experience driven marketing. Karen is the force behind the ACE Awards and other major industry programs, including the Design Excellence Awards and Elaine Gold Launchpad. She also oversees the council's publications from ACE Magazine to Nomad Magazine. Karen and I are gonna jump into a topic that is so important, which is that we need to constantly be learning as leaders, that we never graduate and reach a point where we know enough that we can sit back and dictate from above. Learning can look like anything from getting a certification, taking a course, going to a conference, to rolling up your sleeves and jumping in with your team, whether it's understanding what trends they're into, to helping to stuff gift bags for an event.

[00:02:02] All of these become ways that we stay connected and continuously learn as leaders. She brings such an important perspective to this topic, that learning is our greatest strength as leaders.

[00:02:18] Karen, it is wonderful to have you on Let's Talk, People.

[00:02:21] Karen Giberson: Good morning. Thanks for having me.

[00:02:23] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: We have an important topic. I think that we've been shown a myth about leadership that by the time you get to these levels, you're supposed to know everything, have it all together, and I think it sometimes makes it seem like you don't need to learn anymore, that you have now reached the penultimate point in your career and you have the knowledge within you. And I think we know from our experiences that the best leaders are people who are deeply curious and are sponges for information and continuously learn. And whether it's learning from your team, or a course, or a book, or experiences out there in the world that that's really a huge differentiator in how we navigate business and life.

[00:03:09] Why do you think this mindset about learning and growth matters, and where are you seeing that differentiating people in terms of the leaders that you're working with and getting exposure to Karen?

[00:03:22] Karen Giberson: About 10 years ago I had a big aha moment and there was a series of amazing leaders that I had worked with for almost my whole career that were suddenly job eliminated. And at the same time, I was in meetings with a couple of them and I was listening to them speak, and I realized that they were really out of touch with what was happening in business at that moment. And I had a gasp myself, I thought, if I don't continue to morph and grow and adapt and learn, I will become obsolete. And I felt as a leader in the industry, but also a woman in business, that it was really important to stay on top of my game, and I went back to school.

[00:04:14] And I haven't stopped. 

[00:04:15] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I love it.

[00:04:16] Karen Giberson: I try to learn something intentionally, every year do something different. I went through a Wharton program. I got my general management certificate. I continue to take classes if I find a topic that's challenging to me. Last year I took an AI intensive study because I felt like this is something that I need to understand deeply.

[00:04:38] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And what is it that sparks you? Is it like you're listening to trends and figuring out where you think you need to build more skill? Is it just somebody brings something up and you get inspired? How do you choose where you invest your time as a leader in learning?

[00:04:52] Karen Giberson: I pick things that I feel will have some benefit that I can bring back to my career or personal life, and sometimes I force myself to learn topics that are hard. Learning about how AI works, not how to use AI, but how it works. I felt very out of my element.

[00:05:15] And it was very uncomfortable and I felt like I was in the wrong place when I started that class. But I came out, I'm not the foremost expert. I wasn't the best in the class, but I had an understanding of the background of it. So I think out of your comfort zone is important.

[00:05:33] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Totally. 

[00:05:34] Karen Giberson: I'm so lucky because I work with a lot of young people starting their career, and I learn something from them every day. That could be a trend. It could be where they're shopping. It could be, I walk in and they're waiting online because about to drop, and it's a brand that I never even heard of.

[00:05:51] So sometimes it's just fun stuff like that, that isn't part of what I would normally see.

[00:05:57] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah, there's the formal learning, right, which is where we schedule time and we take a course and we immerse ourselves in an experience. But you're right, I think it's also this mindset piece of are you curious about what other people are doing and how they're living and what's attracting them?

[00:06:12] I think that really is a leadership mindset of everywhere you are throughout your day, there could be an opportunity there to learn if you see it that way. 

[00:06:21] Karen Giberson: I think so. I think we definitely try and having a group of people around you from different backgrounds and places and spaces just makes it a broader chance of stumbling on something or learning something that you didn't already know.

[00:06:36] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: That's right. Yeah. One of the images we're trying to help people to change is this idea that leaders lead from this elevated position of above, because with it comes isolation. And that you're not in the flow, and this idea of being in the mix so that you get to see what's happening and what people are talking about and what's on their minds, gives you so much insight and perspective that you then can bring to, let's say you do need to elevate up, gain a bigger perspective, make a decision, but it's then grounded in reality.

[00:07:04] Karen Giberson: The Accessories Council, which is a not-for-profit trade association, is a relatively small group. I have an amazing team, but it's a small team, so the opportunity to isolate myself from what's happening on the day-to-day, it's not possible.

[00:07:20] It's not something that I would wanna do, but it's not something that's possible in the organization.

[00:07:25] You need to be willing to roll up your sleeves and stuff a gift bag with everyone and make the harder decisions about staffing and teams and budgets and strategy.

[00:07:37] So I think that my experience hasn't really put me in a position where I can be complacent about, it's just all gonna run and I can sit and orchestrate.

[00:07:47] And that's helpful because you realize where people are frustrated or have challenges.

[00:07:52] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I think that's right and it may be that in certain roles it lends itself more to that interactive, go high, get into the weeds, roll up your sleeves. I do think though, from what you're sharing, that is a best practice in general. I do think that when we get too far out of the action, we don't even know what we still need to learn, or we don't have opportunities for our thinking to be challenged.

[00:08:14] So I think that yes, while maybe some roles facilitate that better, I think that is a way to lead, period.

[00:08:20] Karen Giberson: Well, I'm certainly not perfect and I think that's also trying to be better all the time.

[00:08:26] I think it's also just constantly checking in with yourself, let's check the ego at the door.

[00:08:32] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Right, that is a leadership strength. And I think that that's, again, something that maybe we hadn't been taught, that ability to know what you need to learn and to be able to flex, or to change or to apologize or whatever it may be, is what makes us stronger.

[00:08:46] Abigail, I know we have a bunch of questions. 

[00:08:50] Abigail Charlu: Yeah, let's dig into it. The first leader submitted this situation, "I wanna keep learning, whether it's reading more, taking a class, or experimenting with AI, but I barely have time to get through my daily to-do list. How can I make space for learning when I'm already stretched so thin?

[00:09:10] Karen Giberson: Well, learning is something that I schedule first. Because you don't know how that might make your day job easier. 

[00:09:18] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: This idea that learning for you is at the top of your list. I think that sometimes we get really caught up in the urgent, tactical stuff and we don't always zoom out and say, what's gonna allow me to bring the greatest value? So I think that's a really important shift for some of us to think about making. I think that's extremely important. 

[00:09:40] This idea of being too busy I think is real. I do think people really are struggling with just the sheer volume of work and whether it's using AI or having a brainstorm with your colleagues to say, "Hey, this is something that's taking us a ton of time, what's a better way we can do it?" 

[00:10:00] I don't think there's any way out of the busyness cycle except trying to come at it from a different perspective.

[00:10:09] Abigail Charlu: The next manager said, "I have someone on my team who is eager for a promotion but isn't willing to put in the time to build the skills or stretch beyond their current role. How do I coach them to take more ownership of their growth".

[00:10:24] Karen Giberson: Well, I think that it's really important to have regular communication with your team, and if someone's asking questions like that to have reality based discussions and set benchmarks for them. Maybe give them some goals. I push my team, particularly with AI, to use it in a way that will help them save time, come up with ideas, create a PowerPoint. Maybe do some extra things that might save them time. 

[00:10:53] But, whatever that skillset is, I think having clear and honest discussions about what can and can't be done is really important. And then, they decide, or you decide whether they're a fit for your team. 

[00:11:07] Having the right people, it makes all the difference.

[00:11:11] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: It's so true. it's funny, this one feels really off to me because my feeling is when someone really wants to grow in a certain area, be it a career trajectory to get to a next role, they usually are deeply curious about it. I often find that our passion drives our learning, so something feels really off that I do agree with you, Karen, the manager would need to address, which is you have this desire that you've articulated. What do you think you're doing to get yourself ready for it? Being clear on the expectations, the goals, having that transparent conversation. 

[00:11:47] But this, to me, is a bit of a red flag, because that feels like a disconnect, that somebody is saying they wanna be promoted and grow in these ways, but they're not demonstrating through their actions. Because I do see learning new skills, getting curious, whatever might be the techniques that work for you. They're gonna do something that's gonna signal to you that they actually are serious and have already started to demonstrate what you need to see.

[00:12:11] Karen Giberson: Yeah, I think it's how are you adding value to your organization? Every once in a while, in fact recently, a newer employee came in and she had done a project. I didn't ask her to do it.

[00:12:23] She just had an idea, did it, and said, Hey, I wanna show you this. And I was like that's really cool.

[00:12:29] I appreciated that more than anything I would've ever asked her to do and had her complete, she thought about it, she did it, and that impresses me 'cause she cared.

[00:12:39] So I think rewarding those kinds of things is important.

[00:12:43] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah, you're reinforcing the behavior you wanna see and that signals something to others as well.

[00:12:48] Abigail Charlu: Yeah, that's good. Having that frank and honest conversation, And let's say the organization doesn't have a formal feedback process or system or development plan, what would be your recommendations for how to implement that for this individual?

[00:13:02] Karen Giberson: Well, it's a funny question because we don't. I've worked for big companies that have very methodical review processes and forms, and everyone gets this same review, same time. When you work for a smaller company, that it might be true, might not be true, and I think that in that case, you tailor it to the individual that you have working for you in a small team. Clearly if someone comes in and asks for feedback and ask to have a conversation, always have it. And others, hopefully they know what I think they're doing because we're talking all the time about what needs to be done. 

[00:13:36] Our group, we have a team meeting every day. Might be only a few minutes, but we all touch base once a day, just to see who's doing what and who needs what support, and that's helpful.

[00:13:47] Abigail Charlu: The next leader shared, "I'm trying to create a culture of learning on my team, but my senior leader rewards speed and uncertainty over curiosity and growth. How can I hold that line without putting my team or myself at risk?"

[00:14:03] Karen Giberson: That's a tough one, right? For me learning, testing new things, trying, failing fast, seizing opportunities is important and I think that the pace sometimes can make others uncomfortable. For example, if we want to pop an event on the schedule and do it in two weeks some people would be enthusiastic. Others like, "Whoa, you know, all this stuff has to get done". And I think that's a realistic check for me too. So there's a learning moment for me in there. 

[00:14:37] But on the other hand I think prioritizing what's really important to the organization and where we can seize opportunities, hopefully pushes everybody to learn and also bounce out of their comfort zone, they might discover something new along the way, or maybe we fail and we do it differently at the next time.

[00:14:55] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I agree with that. When you initially had shared it, Abby, I'm like, oof, we need to give some feedback to this boss. That's where I initially went, 'cause I'm like, huh, you don't want your team to grow and be curious, so that's already a bit problematic. But if I come at it from a different place of empathy, which I always try to bring myself back to, is I'd wanna be curious what speed and certainty means to my boss. What is it that they're looking for? What are their pain points? Where do they feel stressed? That's just a way to calibrate with them because it may not be that they don't want growth and curiosity from you and your team. It may just be that there's something that they're anxious about that you need to have more of an understanding of. That's just the first thing that comes to mind to me in terms of that calibrating with your leadership. 

[00:15:46] But the other thought that comes to mind is sometimes we don't need to tell our boss everything. If you and your team are exploring different ideas and you're taking a class or someone within the team is teaching a new skill to the others, I'm not sure you need to tell everybody that you're doing that, just do it and add value. And that kind of relates to what you were saying, Karen, which is what are the priorities? What are the things that matter? As long as you and your team have some focus. That doesn't mean curiosity can't expand beyond that, 'cause I sometimes find the best ideas come from the most unexpected places, right?

[00:16:19] But it's targeted towards what is the outcome your boss wants, which is speed and recommendations that you can stand behind. So it may just be that you do what you need to do, and give your boss that feeling of certainty that you can provide from the work that you and your team did.

[00:16:36] Abigail Charlu: Such great advice from the both of you. 

[00:16:39] The last manager said, "The higher up I move, the more removed I feel from day-to-day work, yet I'm expected to make strategic decisions that impact how the work gets done. What's the best way to approach my managers to get honest insights into what's really happening so that I can stay connected without losing their respect or becoming a burden."

[00:17:01] Karen Giberson: I think it's just important not to be out of touch with what's happening on the ground. No matter how big your company is, are you making the time to be very aware of where there might be pain points, opportunities, and connections in what's happening? When I worked for a big company, the leadership, some people were very much in their office and isolated and other people were in the cafeteria having lunch every day. And I would argue that those are the people who had the best idea of what was really happening and what the buzz was around and, meeting people that maybe weren't in their specific department. Networking in your company, as much as you may prioritize having a network out of the company, is really important.

[00:17:50] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Where I see this one go wrong is having too few people that you consistently go to, or you get a one-off story or situation and you act on that. So I really agree with that, Karen, the being tapped in and making sure that every so often you touch base with a broader array of people, I think is a real game changer.

[00:18:11] And then I think it's sometimes by the questions that you ask your direct reports. People are always a little bit careful with their bosses. No matter how much we try to build a close connection, you don't wanna say something that's gonna make your boss think that you don't respect them, or that you're challenging their authority. I think there's ways we as leaders can ask questions that allows you to get more honest insight, which is, "I'm really looking for examples of why this would not work", or "Give me two other ideas of how we could do this differently", or "What have you seen and heard from our clients or from colleagues that's been making you think about this differently?"

[00:18:48] So I think it's sometimes by how we ask the question that you create the permission for your team to share more with you than what they think is just appropriate to share. 

[00:18:59] Karen Giberson: Yeah. Sometimes you can also just learn, and again, I'm in a small environment, just by observing what's the buzz, where are people sitting, who's working together, who isn't working together. There's a lot you can learn by just paying attention to what's going on.

[00:19:16] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah. The dynamics at play. That's so true. 

[00:19:18] You think about it from a social network perspective. That's how information's gonna flow. So I think that's really wise, Karen, who works with whom and who talks to whom will either create the best knowledge moving throughout your team, or you're gonna have blocks that might impact how someone can perform to their best and for the best of the team as a whole.

[00:19:40] So I think that's a really good point, to notice some of those team dynamics too, is a part of learning how information is flowing or not. I love that. 

[00:19:48] So one of the questions that we really like to reflect on, is we believe that we are here as leaders to break certain dysfunctional patterns, to try to create a new way forward. 

[00:20:01] When you think about what matters most to you, what's a pattern that you feel you're really here to break as a leader?

[00:20:07] Karen Giberson: I think that my success, or the thing that's important to me is to constantly learn, reflect and try new things. I have a few words that I don't like. If someone says, "Oh, we tried that, it didn't work". I like to always be thinking, rethinking. Maybe we tried it and it didn't work 'cause it was too early, it was too different a set of circumstances. I like to test, I like to fail fast. 

[00:20:38] If we make a mistake, we learn from that, we move on, we do it differently the next time. So constantly moving, constantly evolving. Constantly evolving is mostly important right now because the whole world that we are in, in retail and trade associations, we're no different than any other business. We have to sell things, our memberships, our events, and we have to make sure our offerings, our product to our customer is something that's right for them in the moment. And what we did five years ago may not work today. 

[00:21:09] So what do we need to do to change our offerings so we're of value, so when you get your membership bill in the mail, you feel good about continuing. Based on the world we live in today, that's gotta keep changing and moving, or we will become obsolete. And I don't want that to happen.

[00:21:29] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I think that this mentality that you can always find a way versus excuses like, "Oh, it's the economy, it's the tariffs", we often try to look for reasons why things aren't going our way, but what I appreciate so much about what you're saying, Karen, is that, it makes it feel that it's always within our control to stay relevant, to bring impact, to improve, and that it's not about perfect. As you said, you can run experiments, you can try things out. Some will land, some won't land. But it's that mindset that you're gonna figure it out by experimenting, practicing, listening to the needs of your customers, broadening your knowledge base so that you can continue to bring value. It feels like we actually can control what can sometimes feel out of control in our work lives.

[00:22:18] Karen Giberson: Yeah, I'm so fortunate. I work with very smart people and in any adverse situation we always figure it out. I know we're gonna figure it out. And that's what I remind everyone, including myself. We got this. We'll figure out how to change our businesses or sell in different ways, take on some of the legal issues that are facing us now and come out better on the other side.

[00:22:40] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: This mentality that there's always a way, I think that's a real unlock, is to have that belief and mindset that you lead with, because from that place, I believe you get better outcomes.

[00:22:53] Karen Giberson: I hope so. 

[00:22:54] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I have no doubt. Karen, thank you so much. This was so helpful to have you role model the importance of learning and trying and experimenting and collaborating and being in the action. So many versions of what learning really looks like for us as leaders in reality, and that all of them are there for us. And this idea that starting from a place of learning being at the top of your list and always finding a way, I think is so grounding and uplifting for people to remember.

[00:23:27] Karen Giberson: Well, thanks for having me.

[00:23:28] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Thank you so much, Karen.

[00:23:30] Karen Giberson: Take care.

[00:23:31] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: It was such a helpful perspective to get re-grounded in, there is no excuse of 'we're too busy to not learn'. And the reason is, is because then we have other forms of either anxiety or desire. So anxiety of fear of losing your job and becoming obsolete or our desire for promotion. All of it is the same thing, it comes back to being really proactive about building skills that are gonna keep you at the cutting edge within your field or your function. I think that is something that gives us a feeling of a lot more control over our destiny than feeling like a victim of what's gonna happen to us. 

[00:24:09] The other thing that I think Karen really helped to shape our perspective on is what if learning became the number one priority you had?

[00:24:17] I think that's a real game changer. So that's something I think for us to really reflect on is what if we approached work with that mindset, how would that change things around how we perform and how we bring value? 

[00:24:27] And then last, but very much not least is, I think we have this belief that if we're in the day-to-day with our teams, we're micromanaging.

[00:24:36] And you may be, but I think the way Karen talked about it is. She wasn't in the mix to micromanage, she was in the mix to have the pulse of what was going on. What can I learn from the people on my team, especially people from different generational backgrounds? What is it that I can notice about who's collaborating and communicating?

[00:24:56] Because that gives you a sense of how knowledge is flowing within your organization and that is part of learning, is what you hear from colleagues. I think that this idea of knowing when to jump in the mix and roll up your sleeves with your team will actually allow you that when you go back and zoom back out and go to your office or your zoom room, that you're gonna have more perspective and more pulse.

[00:25:17] I think that was such an important way of thinking about being in the flow of the work as a leader. 

[00:25:21] On Let's Talk, People, what we love to do most is help you unpack your toughest people management challenges. So send them in. Send in the situations you're struggling with, the questions that you have about leading your teams, and we will anonymize them and give you answers and our advice on an upcoming episode.

[00:25:45] You can write in an email or attach a little audio message with your scenario to abigail@arosegroup.com. That's Abigail, A-B-I-G-A-I-L at Arose Group A-R-O-S-E-G-R-O-U-P.com.

[00:26:07] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Thanks for joining today's episode of Let's Talk, People. For more info and insights, visit arosegroup.com and find me, Emily Frieze-Kemeny, on LinkedIn and Instagram. If you're enjoying the show, please follow, share on social and leave a rating or review in your podcast app- it helps other listeners to discover us.

[00:26:26]  Well, that's a wrap, friends. Until next time when we come together to talk people.