Let's Talk, People: Episode 28

STRATEGIES TO MANAGE YOUR TIME

RECLAIM YOUR TIME WHEN YOU’RE OVERWORKED AND OVERWHELMED

[00:00:00] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Hi, I'm Emily Frieze-Kemeny, host of Let's Talk, People, where leaders come to bridge humanity and profitability. Informed by a couple decades of work as a head of talent and leadership development, I'm here to amplify leaders so they can exalt everyone and everything they touch. Are you ready? 'Cause it's about to get real.

[00:00:28] Let's talk, people.

[00:00:37] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I am really excited to introduce all of you to Kiera Gannon. She's currently the Senior Vice President and Global GM of Ralph Lauren Brands at Delta Galil, where she leads the Women's Sleepwear and Intimates business for both Lauren and Polo. Kiera is bringing over two decades of experience having worked in the apparel and accessories industry. Before Delta Galil, she was the Chief Commercial Officer at Bolt Threads, a company known for developing sustainable material solutions for leading brands.

[00:01:09] She also held senior leadership roles in sales and merchandising at Levi Strauss, Ralph Lauren, BCBG, James Pierce, and French Connection. Kiera currently serves on the board of directors for the Fashion Scholarship Fund, and she brings a global perspective on the consumer that really is paired with a passion for product.

[00:01:32] Today we are gonna embark on a journey of reclaiming our time. It is one of the things we struggle with the most and Kiera and I are going to do our best as mere mortals to help us unpack how we change our relationship to time.

[00:01:48] Let's jump into it.

[00:01:56] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Kiera, it's so great to have you on Let's Talk, People.

[00:02:00] Kiera Gannan: Thanks, Emily. It's so good to be here.

[00:02:02] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I feel like we're talking about a topic that I need my own work therapy on, so I'm gonna try to not make this be about me.

[00:02:09] Kiera Gannan: We probably both need it. Everybody does.

[00:02:12] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I have a longer to-do list than I ever have time and somehow when I set it, I think it's realistic. So I don't know if the time scarcity is self-inflicted, or if it is life and the world of work, but we're in it and I think we started down this path because the most precious thing in the world is our time. And we do a lot as leaders, and I think we also get a lot of feedback from our teams that they don't have enough time. How do we get out of this hamster wheel of the time trap?

[00:02:47] Kiera Gannan: Mm-hmm.

[00:02:48] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And what do we do as leaders when we feel out of control?

[00:02:51] Kiera Gannan: Yeah. It's really funny too, because I also lead people in Europe and there's an American thing here that's a problem.

[00:03:01] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So true.

[00:03:02] Kiera Gannan: And I've become more and more aware of that in the last, I would say, couple of years that I've really been focusing on markets outside of North America, but I think it's constant learning and effort. I have to step back and I have to sometimes be physically reminded to do so.

[00:03:20] So my way of dealing with it and dealing with the overwhelming nature of leading a business, leading people, leading families, whatever's going on is I have to take a step back and remind myself, take a walk, throw the ball to the dog, have a glass of wine with a friend.

[00:03:41] Not everything needs to be as urgent, but it is very, very difficult for me to remember to do that. So I lean on people, including my team sometimes, you know, I tell them right outta the gate, make sure you let me know if it's too much.

[00:03:54] My husband's really great at it, when I'm working from home, he'll stop in my office and be like, have you eaten lunch today?

[00:04:00] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Totally.

[00:04:03] Kiera Gannan: So I think the answer is I lean on people to remind me to take a step back. It's the only way I know how to do it. How do you do it?

[00:04:09] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I try to listen to my body.

[00:04:13] Kiera Gannan: Yeah.

[00:04:14] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And what's been good is I now know when I'm overriding it. It doesn't mean I always stop because I have such a strong drive, and sometimes you're just in the zone, or you have meetings, or you have a deliverable that's due the next day, but I know when it's too much now, whereas I think probably at different points in my career, the override was so strong that I didn't even notice myself.

[00:04:38] My techniques are I meditate, which some people are like, "I can't meditate". I'm like " Fine, just take a nap and set your alarm for 15 minutes". The fact that you get to decompress is huge. I can go all day, eight hours on Zoom or teams on video literally sitting. I joke that I'm gonna die of sitting and it's kind of not a joke as we know, but if I can figure out at least one call that I can turn into phone and I can get out there and walk and talk with somebody, that's like my happy place.

[00:05:10] I will go sit and eat and I won't have my phone with me. Even if it's only five, 10 minutes, I'll sit by myself and stare at the wall or at a tree outside and I'll just eat for a few minutes. And then the thing that I have been working on the most this year is the being present, which you know is like life's work.

[00:05:29] But the fact that you said that part Kiera about how certain cultures, like in some of the European cultures, they have a different relationship with time than Americans do, it reminds me of what I'm trying to practice, which is we actually control what time feels like.

[00:05:43] Kiera Gannan: Yes.

[00:05:44] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So time is not as static as we think it is because of the clock and how we relate to hours on a clock or the light of the day, that when I just try to be in the moment and realize like everything gets done somehow, it does, being present, time feels longer.

[00:06:02] So like lunch, even if it's only five or 10 minutes, if I'm multitasking and talking and on my phone feels shorter than if I'm just sitting there.

[00:06:10] Kiera Gannan: Yeah, and it's interesting that you say that because I was just talking about this the other day. A friend of mine and I were discussing what makes it a good day for you, which I mean, who knows, it could be a million things. But if I think back, when I feel the most productive is when I'm present.

[00:06:27] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: That's right.

[00:06:27] Kiera Gannan: I've had some team members in the past who get frustrated or you can see they're starting to fall off, and when you dig under the covers, you realize they don't feel productive. They feel like they're just doing busy work and I think we get the most out of people when they feel like they're making an impact, when they feel productive, and that requires you to be present. I think that's what we're all looking for, and then we can give our best work. So it's a desire I think we all have and wanna lead people like that and wanna be like that.

[00:06:57] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah. I think there's two really important points from what you're sharing, there's the how we structure our time and our day and being more intentional about that, which is everything from taking breaks to how are you actually getting work done? Is it in the best way? And then the other part you said, Kiera, which I think about a lot when it comes to wellbeing, is that what we're working on and how we feel about that work, does also have an effect on our relationship with time.

[00:07:25] Kiera Gannan: It does.

[00:07:26] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Because when you're in it and you feel like you're doing something meaningful and you feel productive and you feel creative, you're not thinking about time, you're not worrying about "Oh my God, I got five more hours left in the day and this day's dragging on". Or the opposite, which is "What am I gonna do? I have so much to do and I only have five hours left in the day". You're just in it. You're immersed in it. So I think those two things are really, really key to our dysfunctional relationship with time at work.

[00:07:53] Kiera Gannan: Yeah, and I was thinking about you today and I knew that we were gonna be talking about this and I was thinking about what gets me out of control, too? What creates the 'I don't feel productive' or 'I need to step back'? What creates that crazy? And there's some people who really excel when they are in a routine.

[00:08:13] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Right.

[00:08:14] Kiera Gannan: They know exactly what they're coming in to do, they do watch the clock and know when they're done, but they leave feeling fulfilled. Right? They check the box. And then there's others, and I'll put myself in the other bucket. There's others that want momentum and want productivity and want change, and so when you're sitting in this routine, call it weekly meetings or consistent reporting reviews, and those are the things that drive me crazy.

[00:08:41] So, momentum versus routine.

[00:08:44] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah

[00:08:45] Kiera Gannan: These are different strong suits for different types of people and how do you make sure that you're all speaking the same language, if I'm sitting with somebody who likes the routine and somebody who wants to make a different impact, those are hard things to match up and they're hard to lead too.

[00:08:59] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Totally. Abby, I know we have a bunch of questions, I have a feeling we're not the only ones who struggle with the time relationship. What have we got?

[00:09:08] Abigail Charlu: Yeah, some good questions here. One leader asks, "My team is constantly heads down, but I'm not seeing real progress on what matters. We're reacting to everything. How do I help them focus on the work that moves the needle instead of just staying busy?"

[00:09:28] Kiera Gannan: I think I'm actually the worst at this because I'm the one in the background, throwing out all the ad hoc projects, ideas, urgent needs, right? And when I see the teams spinning, I know I've overwhelmed them. There's some people on my team today and I'm sure in every team that really gets energized by that stuff.

[00:09:49] And then there's some people who don't, they spin. And sometimes those daily tasks are just too much that you can't add more onto it, and that's when I take stock, and like, what did we sign up for? How is the team structured? Where do we need more help to go after different ideas? I don't wanna tell anybody to not bring a new idea or a new project or something new to the table. What I like to do is movement and change and momentum.

[00:10:15] But I think the best thing that has worked for me, is I remind people all the time, peers and people who work for me, that when it hits this breaking point we need to communicate so that we can keep moving the needle forward, right? So keeping focus requires constant communication. Not micromanaging, but communication. So when people say "I have this open door policy" whatever that means, I expect you to walk into my office and be like "You're insane, and I love the idea but there's no way I can do this", right.

[00:10:47] I think that's the only way to keep inspiring creativity and then recognizing we can't do everything. We're not machines, we're humans, and it's okay for me and for you and for everyone else to be like, "Okay I love it, I need to pause. You need to come back to me in three weeks, or we can think of a different way to attack it". But if you don't feel occasionally overwhelmed, you're probably not doing it right either.

[00:11:13] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Mm.

[00:11:14] Kiera Gannan: We have to push ourselves. So even if it's in the routine, if the routine is piling up and it's too much routine, we don't wanna stop the madness, we wanna figure out how to do it better, right?

[00:11:25] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah.

[00:11:26] Kiera Gannan: I feel like it's the objective ultimately.

[00:11:29] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And our strengths are also sometimes our dysfunction and sometimes when people have that heads down feeling of like, I'm going and I'm going, I'm going, I'm not making progress, it may be the way they're working, to your point and how they're using and structuring their time, but also it might be us and how we're tasking them. I get a lot of feedback that I get an idea, I need something, I throw it out there and then I forget the details, like "This is what I'm expecting, this is what I need it by, this is why". Because I'm onto the next thing.

[00:12:00] I joke that even though I'm not an artist, I'm a creative. So my brain works and I'm like, idea, idea, and then I kind of forget that sometimes I'm not getting into the structural pieces that other people need, right? So sometimes it's us. And the other thing that was coming to me on this one, when I was listening to you, Kiera, and I was thinking about it, is sometimes heads down is a reactive state. I think we've been trained that you get a ping. The pings are constant. You know, whether it's your emails, something's coming through, or your phone and a text or something on teams, the technology has almost wired us to be reactive and then as a result you can't do deeper thinking and you can't get things done more efficiently. Or you're responding to something that wasn't really that important or urgent because you think you have to, because the technology has trained us to behave that way, that we're addicted to it. This feeling of overwhelm is something we almost need to work ourselves out of and be much more intentional about, am I really doing what I'm supposed to be doing?

[00:12:59] Kiera Gannan: Yeah. It goes back to the most successful organizations have very few objectives.

[00:13:05] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah, that's right.

[00:13:06] Kiera Gannan: Currently I'm leading the Ralph Lauren Sleepwear and Intimates team, and so I look at the Ralph Lauren corporate objectives, and then I also run that business for a company who owns the license for them.

[00:13:17] I look at the Ralph Lauren corporate objectives and then I look at my company's objectives, and I've a lot of objectives, okay. But I tend to prioritize what the Ralph Lauren objectives are because I'm 100% in charge of a brand for another company and they only have three. And I love that. Cause I think about it every month when I'm resetting myself and I look at how close am I to those objectives?

[00:13:41] Now they're not specific to what I do, but they're broad enough that it makes me feel like, okay, I've done a few things this month. And it's not 10. And then I'd be heads down and like in a mess if I was trying to do it all.

[00:13:53] There's a phrase for this. Don't try to boil the ocean.

[00:13:57] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Right.

[00:13:57] Kiera Gannan: Let's just do the thing we can do this year. Or this quarter.

[00:14:00] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah. I think that's so helpful, just the ability to know that you're making impact and that the simpler and more focused the objectives are, the more you can feel that feeling of success and progress.

[00:14:10] Kiera Gannan: Your cup is filled and you do better work, right? We've figured it all out,

[00:14:14] Emily.

[00:14:14] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I mean, let's call it. Drop the mic!

[00:14:18] Abigail Charlu: Well, we do have a few more questions, so we'll keep moving.

[00:14:22] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: C'mon Abby, let us feel how good we are for just a moment!

[00:14:27] Abigail Charlu: Another manager said, "I've been pulled into three new initiatives this quarter, and I keep saying yes because I don't wanna seem unhelpful or unavailable. But now I'm stretched too thin and my team is starting to feel it. How do I say no without sounding like I'm not a team player?"

[00:14:46] Kiera Gannan: So hard.

[00:14:47] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I think in some cultures you're not even allowed to, I wanna just name that.

[00:14:50] This is real, this feeling of can I say no? So at least that's been some of my both lived experience, and some of the work that I've been doing with orgs is, we do expect a lot of people and we keep cutting budgets.

[00:15:03] So I think that's just one thing I wanted to name.

[00:15:05] Kiera Gannan: I think you're right. I definitely have an opinion when somebody tells me "No, I don't have time", and I'm like, "What do you mean? What are you working on that you can't stop and do this? Tell me and I'll reprioritize you". And it's not fair all the time because I try not to micromanage, but now suddenly I'm micromanaging, right? Which does not improve their ability to lead.

[00:15:27] I mean, ultimately I think the best leaders are the ones who are trying to get their team to be better than they are, right? And they can't be better than me if I'm telling them exactly what to do at every step. So I really focus on that, how to make sure to give them the rope so to speak, but not so much where they feel a lack of leadership. And so there's a balance there.

[00:15:50] But I think my suggestion with this is if you really don't have the time, if you feel like something is gonna fall through the cracks, either professionally or personally if I take on one other thing, I think the best thing to do is to carve out a very small amount of time, like 30 minutes, 90 minutes, whatever it is, and make a suggestion of a different approach.

[00:16:11] I think the worst thing is to come into somebody and say " It doesn't work" or "I cannot do it". Follow it up with "Thanks for thinking of me, I'd love to help with this. I can't right now, I can do it at this time" or " I can't right now. I have some ideas. Do you think so and so could be better to address this?", or give some level of solution. I feel like solution suggestions go way further than the negative responses. And it feels like you're more of a team player and you really understand.

[00:16:43] Kiera Gannan: I have had people come up to me and say, "I don't have time for this, and I also don't understand why we have to do it". And I'm like, "Oh. Okay." So the second part is more important than the first part.

[00:16:53] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Right.

[00:16:54] Kiera Gannan: And I think it's healthy debate, you know, "Why do I have to do this? Why are you giving me another brand or another channel, it doesn't make sense. Hire somebody else".

[00:17:01] "Okay, let's talk about that. Let me bring you through our EBITDA". Or "Let's talk about the things that have happened, and this is the reason why".

[00:17:09] I mean, I'm very transparent oriented, I feel like that's the best way to lead. But solution, suggestion if you can't be the one. You're being asked because you're an expert or you have some skillset that feels good for this, so give a solution.

[00:17:24] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah. I wanna go back to that point of the 'how' you say it, I don't think we can underemphasize that, even though it's been called toxic positivity and we're trying to pretend that you don't have to be that way. I mean, let's be honest, it's really hard to be negative when somebody wants something, so clearly somebody thinks it's an important priority, it's an initiative.

[00:17:47] Initiatives usually have that like, "Ooh, I'm letting you work on the cool new thing". And when you respond with a "Womp womp! I'm like, too busy", nobody really likes that or likes how you make them feel. And they may not even like you when you talk that way.

[00:18:01] I think there is a way, again, without being totally inauthentic or toxically positive if we wanna use that term, to be like, "That sounds really amazing and that's so exciting to hear", or, "Wow, that's so amazing we're working on that".

[00:18:16] I think you do wanna like, I'm gonna make up a total weird term right now, like 'fluff bomb' it. Like, I think you kind of wanna bring that... is that a thing? Fluff bomb it? The stuff that comes outta my mouth sometimes! I'm like, "What the hell is that?"

[00:18:27] So I do think that sets the right tone that you're like, "I am an all in". And the "Here's what else we're working on, here's where we're getting bottlenecked because these things are taking longer than maybe we expected", the 'we', meaning, I'm kind of educating my boss

[00:18:43] that this thing takes a long time. Because trust me, my teams have told me in the past that I had no idea how long things would take for them to get done, and that's true, I hadn't done their jobs.

[00:18:53] Kiera Gannan: They still tell me that. And I don't know because I'm not heads down in the weeds of the spreadsheet. I need you to tell me about that. And then I also wanna fix that.

[00:19:04] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah.

[00:19:05] Kiera Gannan: Right? Like, I don't think anybody wants there to be too much going on, but we shouldn't have that situation.

[00:19:13] In some companies it's inevitable, but those surprises of "Oh, I need a team of this size with these people to do this level of business". And if that's not enough, why, what's wrong with the undercovers? You've gotta get into that. But yeah, they do need to share that information.

[00:19:28] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah.

[00:19:29] Kiera Gannan: And try to fluff bomb it.

[00:19:31] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Right? I mean....

[00:19:32] Kiera Gannan: There's no bad ideas, but there are some ideas that may not prove productive.

[00:19:37] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Exactly.

[00:19:38] Kiera Gannan: So let's debate it for a second, and then let's figure out a different way to attack it.

[00:19:43] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Totally. And I think that we sometimes feel capped by what our leadership can hear, or as you say Kiera, us - we're the them as well - and it's a matter of how do we diagnose what is causing the stretch-too-thin? And also, as you said, teach our teams how to problem solve that.

[00:20:04] I mean, if there's gonna be anything positive about this time in history we're in where we do feel like we're getting compressed and crunched by the external world and cost savings, we also have AI and AI has given us an accelerated way to design solutions to get the crappy part of work to potentially go away or get more easeful.

[00:20:27] Kiera Gannan: Yeah, I agree.

[00:20:28] Abigail Charlu: So good, adding fluff bomb to my vocabulary.

[00:20:33] Kiera Gannan: I think it's a real thing. I feel like my children have said that to me before.

[00:20:37] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Mine will definitely make fun of me. If they haven't, they'll be like, "Nice try, Mom. You're still a loser".

[00:20:43] Kiera Gannan: Yeah.

[00:20:44] Abigail Charlu: The next situation gets into a little bit of the advice that Kiera was already getting into. This manager said, "I try to give my team space to figure things out, but when I don't give detailed direction, they either freeze or go in 10 different directions. How do I give just enough structure without micromanaging?"

[00:21:05] Kiera Gannan: I guess we could break that down by what types of projects and work. I have been on the end of "I wanna do this with the business". Or "I wanna see it like this".

[00:21:15] And I do the thing or make a proposal and it's like, "No, no, no. I wanted to look at it in a different way".

[00:21:22] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Right.

[00:21:23] Kiera Gannan: And then that overshadows the work that has been done, of course.

[00:21:27] So I do think that it's okay to hold hands with somebody, on a project stage because you have to start working on a project together, and then assuming the team member is capable, most likely they'll look for direction first and then they'll run with it on their own.

[00:21:43] I don't call that micromanaging, and I don't call that leading. I call that "This is what I'm thinking, and then let's do it together for a second". And then a lot of the work will happen on their own, but they'll at least have an idea of where my head was at, or whoever was requesting it.

[00:21:57] I don't want the conversation to be about "I wanted to see it differently". That's unproductive. So I think that's how I would provide the structure, with a little more handholding in the beginning of the conversation.

[00:22:09] I just hired somebody new and he's been there only for a couple weeks, but he's provided some data points that are interesting to look at in a different way, but I don't think tell the whole picture . So I'm close to him right now, trying to show him this is how we wanna think about it, look at it, this is how the team would like to see it.

[00:22:25] And that's just more directional than it is micromanaging.

[00:22:30] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah, I think people really appreciate that. And when I listen to you, it sounds collaborative. We're in it together, and we do as bosses have points of view. And we do have preferences. I love that it's giving more of that upfront, to set direction and the tone and to shape where it goes so that you're helping the person.

[00:22:51] It's like an on ramp, like you're helping them on the ramp and then they can run from there and go from there.

[00:22:55] Kiera Gannan: Exactly.

[00:22:56] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And then the other thing, again, using myself as an example of not being good at this, is we sometimes take for granted that our internal monologue is clear to other people. I don't think you can over extrovert what goes on in your brain.

[00:23:12] Kiera Gannan: I hope it's not completely clear.

[00:23:14] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Exactly. We're like, we are saving you from some of the crazy that you don't really wanna know.

[00:23:19] Kiera Gannan: You're right.

[00:23:20] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And I think the other thing that we've talked about for a long time, but I don't see a lot of it in practice, in terms of how we lead as leaders, is this idea of ‘start with the outcome’. So "This is what success would look like", "This is why", "This is what I really need from you or what I'm expecting", "We're now at the starting point, what do we need to do to get this on track?"

[00:23:41] I think we go too fast, too reactively and not grounded enough in the bookends. Where do we start from to set the person up for success, as you said, Kiera, and where are we really trying to get to. And I think where the micromanaging comes in is not giving them enough of that space in the middle to do it the way that is most natural and intuitive for them.

[00:24:01] Kiera Gannan: And it's usually a requirement when you are not clear on the objectives.

[00:24:05] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Right.

[00:24:06] Kiera Gannan: I mean, you usually have to get really into the weeds with them if they're not clear and listen, sometimes I'm not clear. And sometimes my boss isn't clear, and we're all trying to do different levels of this, getting into everybody's heads and trying to figure it out because we don't wanna ask too many questions because we don't wanna, seem like we didn't get it in the first place.

[00:24:28] I mean, there's so much humanity woven through all of these things. But, I'm trying to become a more empathetic leader to that stuff.

[00:24:36] And it's okay to ask questions. Please ask questions. Please let me know if I'm not being clear, I'm not gonna get upset about it.

[00:24:42] 15 years ago, I would get upset about it. "How do you not know what I'm talking about?!" Now I'm older and wiser and I recognize that it's really important to be clear on those objectives and to help them figure out the ways to communicate it in the best, most expected way.

[00:25:00] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah. And this is the same advice I have for myself even in my personal life.

[00:25:03] Kiera Gannan: Yeah.

[00:25:04] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: These are not just work skills, these are like life skills that you're talking about.

[00:25:08] Kiera Gannan: It's very true.

[00:25:09] Abigail Charlu: Completely.

[00:25:10] Our last situation, a leader shared, "It feels like my team and I are constantly putting out fires and our short term deliverables are incredibly time consuming. My leadership expects quick results and is also pushing me to start strategizing for the long term. How do I start to prioritize that while we work through our day-to-day challenges?"

[00:25:34] Kiera Gannan: I think this is usually a result of poorly organized environments, or those that have grown or changed so rapidly, right? You almost don't know what everyone's doing. Or you thought they were doing something different, but your business has changed or grown or shrunk or whatever, so sometimes the organizational structure doesn't catch up with what's happening with the business.

[00:26:00] So I tend to believe that it's not about the people. I'm not a big fire everyone, rehire everyone, find new talent, because well, at least with what I do, we're not saving lives here. We're building people's lives and with all the respect there, but I don't think that what we do is so hard that people can't do it well.

[00:26:19] So I tend to try to help with this with big picture solutions and probably that's because I come from big organizations that really focus in on their leaders seeing the forest through the trees.

[00:26:36] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:36] Kiera Gannan: So I'm gonna try to fix the central problem, the root problem, while we have all these fires coming through. And that may be frustrating for the employees who are just trying to check a box and finish something and they can't. But if we don't fix the clunky systems or ones that don't exist, it's like kindergartners on a soccer game, everyone's going to the ball.

[00:27:00] So who can help me address those needs? What is the cost? I wanna get into that stuff.

[00:27:03] So when someone comes to me and says all of these things, I wanna figure out why it's so hard, 'cause what we do shouldn't be that hard.

[00:27:09] So how do they prioritize?

[00:27:11] I think it goes back to what I said in the very beginning is you have to communicate these challenges to the people around you. You have to be very clear, "I can't get it done because of this. I need your help because this doesn't make any sense. If I work on this, it's not additive to this other thing that I'm doing, so help me understand it."

[00:27:30] So, communicate, communicate, communicate, and answer questions. That collaborative working environment I think is the only way to address that stuff. But for sure the team has to deal with why there's a root cause that's causing all this.

[00:27:45] I think usually the organization is not structured appropriately or it needs to be addressed faster through the architecture of their organization.

[00:27:53] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah, sometimes think of it like a house renovation, like how are we renovating? And what was coming to me as I was listening to you, Kiera, is there's three layers.

[00:28:00] And the bottom layer is what you were saying, which is if they're feeling like they're constantly putting out fires, that means, as you said, the foundation, the structural piece is not strong enough and that needs to be architected in.

[00:28:12] Then there's the middle, which is like the day to day, getting stuff done, the more kind of short term oriented.

[00:28:17] And then there's the top layer, which is the strategy and where we're going.

[00:28:22] And the same way you could almost flip it sideways and have three pillars of a strategy.

[00:28:26] Kiera Gannan: Yeah.

[00:28:26] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I think there's three pillars that on a weekly, monthly, quarterly basis, we always need to be doing, and we have to orient our teams that this is actually what it means to work.

[00:28:38] We're building a stronger foundation, as you said, sometimes more structure, sometimes there's too much structure. I've been in organizations to work with them where they're overly structured and people can't move and can't innovate, right?

[00:28:48] You're always working on three pillars, your foundation that sets everybody up for success, the stuff that just needs to get done that's more quick and transactional short term, and you have to build into your calendar the things that are gonna set you up for future growth and future success. So it's almost like these are different forms of projects.

[00:29:06] Kiera Gannan: Yes.

[00:29:07] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And you have to structure again your week, your month, your quarter, that you actually are doing all of them, and there can't be an excuse that you can't make time for the strategy 'cause you won't have a business to be a part of in the future. You won't have a job if you're only doing the day-to-day, 'cause you'll never get ahead.

[00:29:24] And I do think sometimes the role, like if I had to differentiate the layers of employee types, the more senior you are, the more time you should be spending helping your team get ahead and get ready for the strategy. And actually, I think we should be relying on the people who are doing the day-to-day, to tell us what parts of that foundation, of that house renovation, needs to be dialed up or dialed back.

[00:29:48] Kiera Gannan: Absolutely. When employees don't feel like they have a voice, I feel like that's the killer for them.

[00:29:52] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Totally.

[00:29:53] Kiera Gannan: I don't care what level you're at, if you see something wrong, or could be better and you have experience or just a gut feeling that it's not working right, you have to feel confident to say it, 'cause that's how you fix the team's productivity, that's how you address like the challenges. So, yeah. I like that.

[00:30:10] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And then also I think Kiera, a little note to sell for us as leaders, if people aren't telling you what's not working or broken, or where they feel like they're stuck in a deep dive on something that is too time consuming, that is a sign that there's something wrong with either the questions you're asking or not asking, or the level of trust.

[00:30:32] If people are not giving you a lot of feedback and just are getting things done, there's usually a problem with the relationship and their feeling of safety. And again, it's not always our fault. It can be the broader cultural context, or other organizations they've grown up in and what's appropriate. But this is where you start to be like, "Okay, tell me the thing is making you most frustrated, or that if only it could be done differently, your job would be improved 10%, 20%, 30%".

[00:30:58] That's just, I think, a good practice to start infusing that in and then don't debate it. Don't ever debate it as a leader. Instead, really listen and show appreciation and then offline you can think through, well what parts of that do I agree with or not. But you don't wanna shut it down 'cause then people don't share the next time.

[00:31:15] Kiera Gannan: Yeah, you're right.

[00:31:17] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Thanks Abby for helping tee those up. This is why we feel like we don't have time, 'cause we're always juggling a lot at work. And it's not that I imagine that getting incrementally better, it's just how do we work with our time in a different way.

[00:31:29] Now zooming out Kiera, when you think about your purpose as a leader, what do you feel like is the pattern that you are here to break?

[00:31:39] Kiera Gannan: So I've seen a lot of patterns, I've had a lot of different types of people lead me. I do know the kind I wanna be, with some tweaks. I definitively know the kind I don't wanna be, right. And that's probably more helpful at the end of the day. But I think I'm here to provide transparency. I've had a lot of leaders who don't do that, I think it's super dangerous.

[00:32:02] And clear alignment on targets. Some of that comes from where I'm getting information and how it's being shared with me, but if I'm not getting it, that level of transparency too, right?

[00:32:13] But beyond the business side of it, I'm definitely here to have fun and make an impact. I hate awkward work environments.

[00:32:23] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Totally!

[00:32:23] Kiera Gannan: I'm choosing to be here versus somewhere else with my friends or my family or my dogs. I'm choosing to be here with you and I wanna make this as fun as we can under pressure, of course, and all the things, but find that work, family, or create one.

[00:32:41] But probably when I think about the biggest difference and the one that I've started to realize is most important is, I'm here to learn and I'm not here to teach. That's the leadership shift I want, right? I wanna learn from you, whether I'm learning from you as my employee or as my peer, or as my leader, but I don't wanna walk into an organization and just be like the Master of the Domain. That's, it's not interesting, because I'm in it with everyone. And so that pattern of hierarchical "I'm the smartest man in the room", that's the pattern I don't wanna be here for.

[00:33:18] And I guess because I'm a woman, I'm gonna say, I just wanna break the pattern of being a female in leadership positions.

[00:33:26] Which is still disappointing when you see many industries, including mine, that are dominated by men at the table. We still still have some work to do on that.

[00:33:36] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: If I was gonna be generalizing, I would say that there's a relationship between the two things that you just said, which is the ability to not need to be or even want to be the smartest person in the room, but to be the learner. Like to be an active learner, what I see as a characteristic that is a more feminine leadership style.

[00:33:58] That really speaks to me, and I think a lot of what we're suffering from, is a lack of permission to be that way and to be powerful in it.

[00:34:09] Kiera Gannan: Yeah, agreed.

[00:34:10] And it works, by the way. There's been a lot of organizations that have been successful, led by females who adopt that type of leadership role.

[00:34:20] So I guess that's my answer. What's yours?

[00:34:23] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I got the chills. Mine is related to where you're going, Kiera. We have created a standard of what it means to be a leader that has set us all up to fail.

[00:34:32] Kiera Gannan: Yeah.

[00:34:33] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And I want to change how we look at leadership so that we can be human and imperfect and together and connected, that that's actually what it means to lead, and that therefore we're gonna end the suffering of feeling like we're about to fail every moment as a leader. Or the suffering that we get from working for bad leaders because they've been held to a standard that's not realistic.

[00:34:59] Kiera Gannan: Yeah, I agree. Sometimes I talk about the generational shift and then I'm like, "Wait, am I in the generation that's leading right now?" I feel like I still feel like a kid trying to figure it all out. I mean, we're making some progress just not fast enough.

[00:35:13] But thank you so much for the chat. I mean, it's always fun to try to save the world one person at a time. And in that case it'll be me or you.

[00:35:24] Kiera Gannan: But I appreciate it and I welcome anybody who's willing to explore these ideas and how to do it differently .

[00:35:30] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Well, this is what opens up the space for others to feel safe to have these types of conversations and to remember that we're all imperfectly doing this and learning. And so thank you for both being a role model leader and in being a role model leader, that includes being self-reflective and self-deprecating and a learner, 'cause that's what it's all about.

[00:35:56] So thank you.

[00:35:57] Kiera Gannan: Thank you.

[00:35:58] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: It's a pleasure.

[00:36:05] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: This is such a challenging and important topic and there's a few things that stand out to me from our conversation. One is really trying to anchor your team on just a few clear priorities. I know especially with our enthusiasm, we can wanna do so many things. I fall victim to that for sure. But the unfortunate part is the only way to avoid overwhelm and reactive ways of working where you're just reacting to what's coming at you is having only approximately three core priorities and objectives that people can remember and stay focused on. And that really fuels progress even more than doing a lot of things simultaneously.

[00:36:45] The second one is about how we lead with the right amount of structure and support without micromanaging. So when we provide that upfront direction and context, so here's what success looks like, here's what I'm expecting, here's the outcomes we're hoping to achieve, then the team knows where they're going and where they wanna get to as an endpoint and can have a little bit more authority to use their own genius and their own gifts to figure out how they actually execute towards that direction. And then the third is really about. How do we say no? We do it with solutions.

[00:37:22] So when you're stretched really thin, don't just say, "No, I can't do it", or throw up the complaint, but offer an alternative timeline or a different approach or a suggestion of who to pull in or other ways to get the work done because that will have leadership and others experience you as showing ownership and passion, versus, seeming like a blocker or a resistor to the work getting done.

[00:37:53] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: While I know the busyness of work doesn't stop for us, we can put micro moments of getting grounded, clearing our minds, so that we can be even more productive and creative in how we approach our work. The exercise that we're gonna share with you, which you can find at arosegroup.com/resources, it's A-R-O-S-E-G-R-O-U-P is specifically about meditation. And the reason we picked meditation for these micro moments of grounding and wellbeing is because you can take it anywhere you go, and we have this capability within all of us, and the science behind it is so compelling. You'll see it in the exercise, it's pretty undeniable that you need to fit these small moments into your day just as transitional points about how you start, how you get some perspective when you need it, and how you wrap up your day.

 [00:38:51] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Thanks for joining today's episode of Let's Talk, People. For more info and insights, visit arosegroup.com and find me, Emily Frieze-Kemeny, on LinkedIn and Instagram. If you're enjoying the show, please follow, share on social and leave a rating or review in your podcast app- it helps other listeners to discover us.

[00:39:13] Well, that's a wrap friends. Until next time when we come together to talk people.