Let's Talk, People: Episode 26

IS YOUR POWER SILENCING OTHERS?

LEAD WITH SELF-AWARENESS TO UPLIFT MARGINALIZED TEAM MEMBERS

[00:00:00] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Hi, I'm Emily Freeze Cheney, host of Let's Talk People Where Leaders come to bridge humanity and Profitability informed by a couple decades of work. As a head of talent and leadership development, I'm here to amplify leaders. So they can exalt everyone and everything they touch. Are you ready? 'cause it's about to get real.

[00:00:28] Let's talk people

[00:00:33] in this episode on Let's Talk people. We're gonna go a little bit of a different place. There's a lot of conversations we have that don't get recorded that are more intimate in nature, and I feel so grateful and blessed that Owen Rogers, who is a collaborator of ours, an amazing executive coach, and innovation and design strategist, and the former founding partner of ideo.

[00:00:58] For those of you who know ideo, I don't need to say more. For those of you who don't. IDEO pioneered human-centered design back in the day and is behind so many of the incredible products and experiences that we have lived with from the Apple Mouse to the Oral B toothbrush, to furniture design, space design.

[00:01:19] I could go on and on. That's just so you know how special and incredible Owen is and how significant his leadership has been, both within IDO and across companies, because it will give you even more appreciation for I. How much reflection and self work he's done to be able to feel comfortable having a really vulnerable conversation with me.

[00:01:43] Where we get into marginalization that happens within the workforce when it comes to women, people of color, and the role that white men play in that dynamic who often sit in powerful leadership roles. Let's get into it. Owen. I'm so excited to have you on. Let's talk people.

[00:02:04] Owen Rogers: Good morning. Oh, good afternoon, wherever you are in the world.

[00:02:07] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So, Owen, one of the things that I know about you that led us down this deep dive into this conversation about how do we help people to fully show up whole in their full expression, is the fact that you had shared with me that as a male business leader, you have a real affinity now in your coaching work of supporting women.

[00:02:29] And that you've done a lot of reflecting on who you are and how you show up in the world, and this idea that all of us bring different qualities as a leader. It sparked me when we had had a conversation that there are conditions within organizations that cause certain people to shrink. Sometimes it's societal, sometimes it's lived experience.

[00:02:48] Sometimes it's just kind of a dominant masculinity that causes that. And I thought it was helpful for us to do a bit of a reflection and some practical tips on how can we think as leaders. Of ways in which we allow people to fully show up with all of their gifts. And what are the ways that systems have already caused people to be careful that we believe it's our responsibility to help reverse.

[00:03:14] Owen Rogers: Wow, how long do we have? This is probably the topic that's taken the most amount of time in my brain right now because you know when something interesting happens to you, or maybe, maybe this is just me, but something interesting happens and then you dunno whether you are leading the witness or you're seeing it for the first time in conversation or hearing it for the first time in conversations, or you're seeing it out in the world.

[00:03:34] It's kind of happening a little bit like that to me. So when I texted you yesterday. Emily, what are we gonna be talking about? And you came back with your text to me. I was like, oh yeah. That's the thing I'm thinking about constantly. Yeah.

[00:03:46] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah.

[00:03:47] Owen Rogers: I'm not entirely sure where this conversation is gonna go, but I know I'm in it and I know it's very relevant to me.

[00:03:53] Yeah. Not in an all consuming, scary way that I think has swept through people and societies, especially around d and i and whether it's included and how it gets dis included in agendas. But just didn't how I show up. And as you referenced my work, a lot of the work I do, but both the design and the coaching work relies heavily on just being aware.

[00:04:19] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: That's right.

[00:04:20] Owen Rogers: And this is a big space to be a bit aware about, in my opinion.

[00:04:24] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So what I was thinking is I'm gonna do some personal sharing around my lived experience, and then I think it's really helpful to get kind of the male leadership perspective on this. I think what I don't bring is I'm not a person of color.

[00:04:41] I came from what would be considered a privileged background. We had our ups and our downs, but overall I came from a very privileged background, educated, all of those things. I. However, as a female and as somebody who comes from a Jewish heritage, you have these things that have even been passed down generationally around you're not safe, you're a religious minority.

[00:05:03] And again, I walk around the world looking like a lot of people who have power as a white person. However, as a woman. I didn't even understand this until I became an adult, and I've reflected on it. One of the books that really kind of got me hard was Glennon Doyle's book, untamed, where I was like, oh my goodness.

[00:05:20] I didn't even understand what sexism was or how it was impacting me. I don't think I even understood. What programming had been put into me from such an early age around being a good girl and not getting in trouble, and that when you become stronger in your opinions and in your conviction and in your presence, that it's gonna make other people uncomfortable and it's not gonna be received the same way if you are a man.

[00:05:50] So I used to think that I was so lucky that I worked on Wall Street and I worked in big tech and I was in my full expression. And as I reflect, I think about all the times that I knew I was a fraction of myself. I used to even over and over reflect on feeling like a caged animal because the more I would start to shine and get big, the more somebody will bam and make it about something else.

[00:06:17] You're not collaborative. You're so ambitious. Of course you wanted to take that opportunity 'cause you wanted the promotion and it was so shameful. Anytime somebody would say things like that to me, my reaction was, I've been a bad girl. I'm being inappropriate. I need to go back in my box. I. But it didn't feel authentic.

[00:06:37] That's me explaining how I've experienced it and how as I coach people and support other people in this work, I'm very realistic. That's why a lot of what we like to talk about, and let's talk people, is the pragmatic part of this. I can't tell a woman or a person of color or someone who is a minority in terms of sexual orientation or socioeconomic background, whatever it may be, I can't tell them to fully show up in their full expression without sensitivity to the political dynamics that are around them.

[00:07:05] 'cause those are very real and they're still present. And especially in this moment in time we're in, it's very present. So how do you balance that? But that's kind of how I reflect on why this topic matters to me and why I think we need to be talking about it as business leaders and organizational leaders.

[00:07:21] Owen Rogers: Can I frame a couple of things first before we dive in? Yeah. I think it's important for people to know that I'm part of the arose group. I found you because I was interested and curious about what you were up to and reached out to you. But this conversation terrifies me. I'm sitting here feeling, feeling my feelings, and I'm really nervous listening to you.

[00:07:44] Then I was experiencing that. And then questioning it, and I wanted to just share. The reason I'm nervous is 'cause I know this is gonna go out in the world and I don't wanna fuck it up. I don't wanna get it wrong because I also am very aware that I'm an old white man.

[00:07:59] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And that doesn't even speak to the fact that you were in such a significant enviable leadership role.

[00:08:08] I studied IDEO in my graduate program. I was obsessed with ideo.

[00:08:12] Owen Rogers: Yeah.

[00:08:13] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Not everybody knows ideo, but for those of us who know ideo, it has an iconic place in our work.

[00:08:20] Owen Rogers: Yeah. Should I give a tiny little bit of my background? A little bit of like, or at least now after having gone through a lot of this. Work to get to where I am to today.

[00:08:29] Some of what I realized.

[00:08:32] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So I think it's really helpful 'cause I, I gave my perspective, I think, again, to your point, Owen, to be able to hear how you've led and how you've shown up there was such a lack of consciousness. 'cause you only, you only know what you know. Until you do deep self work and then you can reflect back and you just see things and you're like, oh my gosh, this is why I felt this way, or this is what contributed to me showing up this way.

[00:08:57] But yeah, when you're in it, you're just doing, you're just doing the things, you know, you're just working. I.

[00:09:02] Owen Rogers: You know, I was at IDO for 25 years. I did everything. I was a designer, project leader, managing director. I ran the gamut of all of the things. And one of the things about IDO was we moved at a speed that the companies we worked for could not move.

[00:09:18] I. To move at that speed. You, by definition, you have to not be questioning everything that's going on around you. There is so much ambiguity in the content. You need the process and the structure to be fairly stable, just to be able to get to the answers that people don't know are out in the world. So that's the disruptive innovation piece.

[00:09:39] I think what became apparent to me over time is that unless you question the structure. And the process and the makeup of the organization, it becomes a little bit homogenous. It becomes a little bit the same because you're relying on that to keep the speed going, to keep that same thing pumping out, and then all of the structure that goes around that.

[00:10:00] I was complicit in a lot of that. I don't think I was doing wrong. I think this is a story you hear from a lot of men. It wasn't setting out to discriminate against people, but by definition what I was doing was discriminating against people. And so I, I had to really look at that and understand, first of all, I had to see it, then I had to kind of understand it, and then I had to sort of unpack my piece in that and take responsibility for it and do the work of figuring out how I wanna show up differently.

[00:10:31] I'm not perfect at all. I'm in it. I'm on that journey and it's all interesting and I'm curious about it. I meet that with curiosity and openness now as opposed to just, we just gotta get the fucking job done. Let's just get this done. And it's top of mind to me. So, especially in my coaching practice, 'cause it's top of mind, I can be incredibly open and able to have that conversation around the power dynamics that led to where a lot of people felt themselves not being able to bring their full self to work every day.

[00:11:04] Not in a way that I know the answer, but just that I know I was part of the puzzle and I'm willing to take my share of the blame for being part of that puzzle. I will always hold my hand up and say, I wasn't trying to purposely hurt people or leave people out or exclude people, but now that I see some of what happened, I can show up in a different way in that conversation.

[00:11:25] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And I think that the lesson is right here, Owen. It's almost like there's nothing more we need to do, but what you just shared is the work for all of us as leaders, and I'd say. Especially in this context for men who have not always been invited or welcome to have these types of conversations.

[00:11:43] Owen Rogers: Pretty scary.

[00:11:44] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: It's not masculine. What you just said is the most powerful part, which is to reflect, to imagine that there's something about how you lead held space upheld the system operated within the system that created a dynamic where not everybody could fully flourish.

[00:12:05] Owen Rogers: Yeah.

[00:12:06] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Not that it's your fault, not that you did anything hurtful or malicious or wrongdoing, but just the fact that when you have a leadership role, you are upholding things.

[00:12:16] I remember in one of my roles, and it was the only time in my entire career where I was like, I have to leave. I can get through anything. I'm super adaptable and flexible, and as I said, I know how to shrink and fit into a small space so that I don't make other people uncomfortable was when I felt that my leader's behavior.

[00:12:34] Was so egregious and bullying that just by being an executive and being quiet, I was upholding it.

[00:12:43] Owen Rogers: As you're saying that, and I hear you say that, I am recalling that as I was awakening to some of this stuff, one of my reactions was to start going down the path of what I think allyship. Kind of became, which was, I would call it out 'cause I can, I am big and I am white, and I am a man and I'm a leader.

[00:13:04] And I would say, Hey, that's not good enough. What do you do? Why did you say that? And if it was appropriate to take the person to a different room to say it, or it was appropriate to say it in the room, I started to make those choices. I always knew they were the right things to say, but all of a sudden it became like technicolor as the world shifted and we went through a whole bunch of things that sequentially happened since I think 2017, and a bunch of things happened that made this awareness become much more of this technicolor version where you are like, wow, I see that over there.

[00:13:37] Why are men talking over women all the time in this? I've never real, I've never noticed that before. I guess I had, but I hadn't noticed it with the awareness that I now had.

[00:13:47] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Right? Or why is it not appropriate for a woman to ask for more pay, but it's appropriate and expected that a man asks for more pay and how the negative feelings pop up when a woman advocates for herself, but a man is expected to.

[00:14:01] These are things that you just accept, but you're right, we didn't talk about them. I wanna unpack the thing that you said about the naming it and what allyship looks like. I think you're right, Owen. There are times where it's safe to name it in the room, and the more positional power you have, the safer it is for you.

[00:14:18] The more junior you are relative to who's in the room, the more unsafe it is because you're basically putting it in the face of your leadership because you're gonna make them potentially feel vulnerable or feel shame. It will come back at you as an attack. And that's dangerous. That's one thing. I think there's allyship that happens outside of the room.

[00:14:39] Which is, I don't wanna assume. I notice when somebody said blah, blah, blah. How did that feel for you? Because I experienced something, and I had this happen recently with a group of leaders that I was working with where there was an off color joke. I just didn't know how it landed with one of the other people in the room and I wanted to just gut check it and she was fine, but I wanted to just name it.

[00:15:00] And just by doing that it says it's okay for us to talk about these things. And then also the next time I met with the group, I brought it back in the room and I said, just like as a process step, we're gonna go through a lot of really intimate, difficult emotional conversations together. 'cause we're doing some pretty deep work.

[00:15:16] Stuff's gonna come up and you're not gonna always say things exactly the right way. How do we handle giving each other grace? How do we give each other feedback about that and what's better to do in the room and outta the room? And we talked about that. 'cause I do think, again, we cannot be naive that there are political dynamics and that when somebody feels confronted with feedback, it can feel like a personal attack or they can just be ashamed and embarrassed, which can show up in more aggressive ways than is what's helpful.

[00:15:46] Owen Rogers: Plus one a hundred percent everything you just said. I think on a very personal level, what I have learned is that doing stuff outside of the room for me is more valuable for everybody because in the room, the power dynamic, as you quite rightly said, still exists because we don't want it to, because we're aware of it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, and because of that, if done in the room, it can be very clumsy.

[00:16:12] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:14] Owen Rogers: I have witnessed that. Many leaders, and I'll speak for leaders, don't know how much power they yield in the room,

[00:16:22] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: right?

[00:16:23] Owen Rogers: That is something you're not taught. That is something you come to understand, and it is always surprising, and so yielding that in a clumsy way can be really detrimental. You could say something, then you could step outta room.

[00:16:37] Somebody can give you feedback that somebody else was hurt by something you said, and you're like, I never intended to any of that. I really did not. But it still happened. So that's why when you were saying it, I think that's been a lesson for myself is to be more considered, take more time to do it in a less fumbly way.

[00:16:54] In some ways coaching of men and women, but men kind of allows to have some of those tough, vulnerable conversations. I've recently become part of a men's group, which I never, I, I kind of stayed away from. I've never really liked that energy until I became part of this men's group and realized that many men are dealing with issues that they don't talk about that are the things that trickle out into a lot of those behaviors.

[00:17:20] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: That's right.

[00:17:22] Owen Rogers: One of them is that most men worry about providing for their families and they do not voice that to their partners, even if they are in great loving relationships with 'cause they see that as weakness. They don't want people to worry, they are fearful. And then that comes out in, I must provide, I must earn as much, I must do as well as I can.

[00:17:47] And that is a constant source of stress for men.

[00:17:50] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And the ugly underbelly of that that doesn't get talked about is the competitiveness that can then happen in organizations because it's literally survival.

[00:17:58] Owen Rogers: A hundred percent.

[00:17:59] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: If I lose this job, if I don't get that promotion over you, I can't provide for my family

[00:18:06] Owen Rogers: and none of it.

[00:18:09] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: That's right. And then there's another flavor of this, which is the part of, we've never allowed men to talk about their feelings. Back to how uncomfortable it is to join a men's group or to say you're going to therapy and people thinking you're having a mental health crisis. It's like, no, I'm going to therapy 'cause I wanna do self work, or I wanna get a coach 'cause I wanna do self work.

[00:18:27] I wanna be more aware of what might be going on. That is beyond what my lived experiences or what my perceptions are. We have created a dynamic. Where it's not appropriate for men to even feel all the array of feelings that they feel. So think about how that gets presented. Then at work is I'm a leader.

[00:18:48] I have to show that I have it all together. I'm a provider. I am strong, and strong means I don't feel so then you ask people to be vulnerable. Vulnerable, whoever was taught how to be vulnerable.

[00:19:02] Owen Rogers: Our audience is kind of leadership moving to or in executive leadership. Think about when this happens. You are 40, 45 years old.

[00:19:11] You've done all these things. You've fought and you haven't been vulnerable, and you haven't expressed your feelings, and you haven't shown any of this. And you've talked bullshit and you've flicked towels and you have talked over women and you've elbow people out the way and it's worked. Right? Right.

[00:19:28] And all of a sudden you enter into vp, SVPE, VP, and C-Suite land, and people are like, nah, Uhuh not anymore. Not anymore. Not in modern society. And you go, wait, whoa, hang on, I've got no tools to deal with this. And again, that point does happen for men and for women. You think about what they're looking for at that point of, oh, I need to step up into this world.

[00:19:51] I. I know 'cause I'm a man, I know what you're asking men to do. You're asking them to be vulnerable, but to do the work. To do it truly

[00:19:59] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: to reflect even. Just to reflect

[00:20:01] Owen Rogers: all of it. And then the women's side is what we started this conversation with, like the consequences. I love you and admire you. That's why I was drawn to you, but how did you choose to stop trying to fit into the other box?

[00:20:14] I've got this great friend who I've really connected with in the last few weeks because of what's going on in my head more and more, and she's writing a whole book about this.

[00:20:23] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah,

[00:20:23] Owen Rogers: she called it the Dyson hair moment, where she's great at what she does, and she is a little bit worried about where she is right now, and does she need another corporate job?

[00:20:32] And she's got offered this job. And so she spent all of this time over the weekend preparing for her interview on Monday morning, and then it was like 10:00 AM on Monday morning, and she did her hair with her Dyson curl thing. Mm-hmm. Quarter to 10 on Monday morning, they emailed her and said, sorry, we gave the job to somebody internally.

[00:20:51] Wow. Yeah. Said I realized at that moment, once I'd finished being angry, right. I didn't even want the job and that I was trying, I was doing my hair, trying to be what I thought they wanted me to do, and she said, I'm done. I'm done doing that. I'm going to be me from now on. And I was like, that's irrespective of gender.

[00:21:10] Yeah. Be what you wanna be, not what you think others want you to be.

[00:21:15] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I think it unfolded in stages, which is I just love the dichotomy of the work, which is we're all doing our own self work and then we're helping other people and we really need to be honest that to your point, oh, and none of us are perfect.

[00:21:27] We're all on our own journey of working through our shadows. I. The first one for me, that took me a very, very long time to work with. I won't say work through 'cause I still have moments where I get hooked, which is that not everybody's gonna like me. And no matter how hard I try to mold myself and I'm pretty good, I'm a bit of a chameleon.

[00:21:48] I can get along with almost everybody. Still, people aren't gonna like me. And I had to get confronted with that, like a punch in the face until I was like, okay, thank you universe. I have now gotten the message. And it was, it was not pretty. That was one.

[00:22:04] Owen Rogers: I don't wanna go over that, but can I just say one thing?

[00:22:07] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yes, please.

[00:22:08] Owen Rogers: Because I remember the moment you shared who you really are with me when you told me really what you're doing, and I loved you more for it. Which is really interesting.

[00:22:18] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Right. So that's kind of part two is when do you decide that there's always gonna be people who want you to play small, but it's actually more about how they feel about themselves. And for that not to be shameful.

[00:22:32] Owen Rogers: Okay. We're done. That was it. That was it. You just, that is, you nailed it. You nailed it. That's it. Which is the coaching that we both do, right.

[00:22:41] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: That's right. And then I'd say the last one, which is a gift that I have received and that I try to generously give, which is probably why people are attracted to a rose group, even energetically without even knowing us.

[00:22:53] How you and I found our way to each other is I want everybody to know what it feels like to be fully seen and cheered on. I call it amplified. I see into your soul. I know how good you are and I could meet you for five minutes, or five hours or 50 years, right? I see you. And I want everybody to know what that feels like.

[00:23:18] And I have had that experience. You can do all the self work, but to have somebody who can mirror back to you, your brilliance is everything. And from that place, we get to continue to heal as individuals and in community.

[00:23:33] Owen Rogers: You've nailed it. The thing I would add to the end is I actually think that's what the leadership journey is about.

[00:23:38] Yes, actually that's right. You know, if we bring this all the way back to leadership, if you can feel that as a corporate leader Yes. Or a startup leader, or the leader of the PTOI. I remember when the PTO changed over in our kids' school. And it went from being a person who was brilliant, but trying to prove themselves to brilliant and not trying to prove themselves.

[00:24:03] That's right. Oh my God. Like everybody wanted, everybody wanted to give money. Every wanted to be there. You wanted to do all the bakes, you wanted to put all your time. Yeah.

[00:24:10] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: That's the shift.

[00:24:11] Owen Rogers: And I'm like, that's it. That's the lesson, but you can't, it's like when Bernie Brown made vulnerability. Cool.

[00:24:18] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yes.

[00:24:18] And

[00:24:18] Owen Rogers: all of a sudden, and you a hundred percent. I was one of them. So I was in this group. All of these male leaders, 40 years old, basically around that age, were running around being vulnerable. I'm sure all of the people who were vulnerable who had done the work were looking at that group, which was a massive group at the time, by the way.

[00:24:38] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yep.

[00:24:39] Owen Rogers: Going, oh fuck. We've created this absolute chaos now.

[00:24:44] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Right? It's a hot mess. Yeah.

[00:24:45] Owen Rogers: Everybody's got feelings. Everybody's crying.

[00:24:48] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And what do you do with it? It's unstructured

[00:24:50] Owen Rogers: and it's not real. So fortunately, that's died down, I believe now. There was the pendulum swing against it, and now it's come back into that middle place of actually, vulnerability really is a great tool to be able to understand, to use your own, but it comes from having done the deep work to get there.

[00:25:08] It's not about being vulnerable, it's about what you just said. It's about how you show up. This woman I referred to, this friend of mine who is utterly, utterly amazing. She's made this conscious decision now. It doesn't mean that she doesn't want to try and be what others want her to be. Yeah. It just means she's aware of that and she can catch herself in time to kind of give herself a good talking to, to be able to say, it's at least a choice.

[00:25:32] If I wanna do my hair for this interview, I'll do my hair for this, but know that I'm doing that. Don't just unconsciously do it. Oh, love it.

[00:25:41] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Thank you for trusting me to have this conversation and for us showing people that it's about the process. It's not about the answers.

[00:25:54] Owen Rogers: Thank you. Thank you for bringing me in and letting me do it.

[00:25:57] I feel less nervous now.

[00:25:59] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I'm very happy to hear that. And you know what, Owen, that's how we all feel, and I think it's important for us, even as quote unquote experts, to show that we're doing the work too.

[00:26:10] Owen Rogers: Definitely doing that. Thank you, Emily.

[00:26:12] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Thank you. I am really appreciative that Owen went there with me today to really get into the dynamics that are both driven by power and gender and race.

[00:26:25] I. That the most important thing all of us can do as leaders is to reflect and to imagine even that we might have played some part or could play a part in helping other people to really shine and fully bring their incredible gifts and their own power as well to the workplace. I think that it's not about getting it right, it's not about fixing all the wrongs.

[00:26:49] It's about imagining what our parts could have been and how they may have played out to impact others. And I think that's for me, the really key takeaway in all of this. And that is hard work.

[00:27:04] And let's talk people what we love to do most. Is help you unpack your toughest people management challenges. So send them in. Send in the situations you're struggling with, questions that you have about leading your teams, and we will anonymize them and give you answers in our advice on an upcoming episode.

[00:27:23] You can write 'em an email or attach a little audio message with your scenario to Abigail at. Rose group.com. That's Abigail, A-B-I-G-A-I-L at arose group A-R-O-S-E-G-R-O-U p.com. Thanks for joining today's episode of Let's Talk People. For more info and insights, visit a rose group.com and find me Emily Freeze Cheney on LinkedIn and Instagram.

[00:27:54] If you're enjoying the show, please follow share on social and leave a rating or review in your podcast app. It helps other listeners to discover us. Well, that's a wrap. Friends. Until next time when we come together to talk people.