Let's Talk, People: Episode 25

GIVING FEEDBACK THAT BUILDS, NOT BREAKS

BECAUSE AVOIDING IT DOESN'T SERVE ANYONE

[00:00:00] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Hi, I'm Emily Frieze-Kemeny, host of Let's Talk People Where Leaders come to bridge humanity and Profitability informed by a couple decades of work. As a head of talent and leadership development, I'm here to amplify leaders. So they can exalt everyone and everything they touch. Are you ready? 'cause it's about to get real. Let's talk people.

[00:00:33] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: It is such a pleasure to welcome Wanda. Short of Let's Talk People. She's the Chief learning Officer for Sanofi, which is one of the leading global pharmaceutical companies with 48 billion in revenue. And over a hundred thousand employees globally. Before joining Sanofi, Wanda built her career in a number of different leadership roles At Johnson and Johnson, she led strategic operations for research and development, drug safety, and she was the leader for talent development as well as the head of strategic business operations for global development.

[00:01:07] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Before Johnson and Johnson, Wanda held a variety of roles in talent development, organizational change, and process improvement at leading companies, including Morgan Stanley, which is where I was the lucky one to get to meet. Wanda. Wanda, I'm so excited to have you on. Let's talk people. 

[00:01:24] Wanda Shoer: Hi Emily. I am so happy to be here. Thank you for having me. 

[00:01:28] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Well, we have a topic we know people really care about getting guidance on. It's, I think, a bottomless pit of learning for all of us, which is on feedback. And before we jump into it though, I always like for people to get a chance to get to know the guests. I like to start early. I think that there's always these glimmers of insight of who we were as a child that then have a way of showing up in the way we go about living our lives.

[00:01:50] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So maybe if you could just give us one story, one moment of something about your childhood and how you grew up that gives us a window into who you are. 

[00:01:58] Wanda Shoer: I grew up outside of Boston in a town called Lawrence Mass, so about 30 minutes north of Boston. I used to think that I wanted to be a writer, so I used to write poetry as a child, and one of the early memories that I have is that I had submitted a poem.

[00:02:17] Wanda Shoer: I think I was in fourth grade for a contest and I won, and it was called Snowy Days. So. 

[00:02:23] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Are you gonna read it for 

[00:02:23] Wanda Shoer: us? I don't have it here, but it was a short poem and I really thought that that was sort of taking off my career into poetry, but it didn't really quite work out that way. 

[00:02:35] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So slight, slightly different what you do today? Yeah, slightly different today. Is writing still something that's a interest or a hobby or something that you've brought into your life? 

[00:02:45] Wanda Shoer: Yeah. Yeah, writing is still a hobby. I do a lot of reflecting and writing just on personal journals and things like that, but I also do writing for some of the concepts around learning and skill building, and, and that's something that I, I do a couple of times a year I'll publish something related to, to skills and behaviors and things like that.

[00:03:09] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I had a feeling, I, I find often the things that were of interest to us early in our lives have this way of staying with us. They, they might kind of take slightly different forms. Tell us a little bit about what you're up to today and what you love the most about it. 

[00:03:22] Wanda Shoer: I love my job, honestly. I feel like I'm doing exactly what I wanna be doing. I lead a learning organization at Santa Fe Pharmaceuticals. I've been in the pharma industry for probably about 13 years, but I started my career in the financial services industry where we met. Yeah. I love to help people gain the skills that help them get closer to where they want to take their careers.

[00:03:50] Wanda Shoer: For me, that's sort of the best feeling to know that something that I've developed or my team has developed is helping someone get to know themselves better and also help them achieve whatever it is that they're looking to achieve for their next, next step. 

[00:04:06] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: That's great leadership. You care about people's growth and development, and that's something we want everybody to be doing regardless of their organizational hat.

[00:04:13] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I also really appreciate Wanda, the people who have had careers like you where it spans different roles and being in the business and being back in an HR role. I think it gives you such a appreciation for what you're creating. 

[00:04:25] Wanda Shoer: I definitely think that being able to transition from your HR type of function or any supporting function into the business is something that I, I think is so valuable.

[00:04:37] Wanda Shoer: It's, it helped me a ton in understanding how the business works and understanding how I get to support the business from the other, the other end. I'm so glad that I had the opportunity to do that in my career. 

[00:04:50] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: The more we are able to move people who have an interest in being moved to a different part, the better it knits together the whole organization.

[00:04:58] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And I think that often where things go wrong in orgs is like the in-betweens because we don't really understand and appreciate what people are doing in different functions. So I think that's another important point about how we lead. So if you reflect back, and I'm sure there's many, what would be one moment that really stands out to you that you feel has shaped who you are as a leader today?

[00:05:18] Wanda Shoer: When I started my career, I was working on developing training for the analyst programs, and as we were developing those programs, we were looking at not just sort of what is the learning to do the job that people have to do, but what are the types of experiences that people need to have and what are the current events, for example, that people should know about and know how to speak.

[00:05:44] Wanda Shoer: Speak to and how do you actually manage expectations and how? How do you manage the relationships and how you collaborate? That was all part of how we were designing training back in those days. I think we still designed training that way, but. For me, starting my career, building that out was such a great way to shape who I am as a person because I learned the importance of doing that very early on, and I've always thought that it's kind of shaped me in terms of how I.

[00:06:18] Wanda Shoer: Prepare myself as I've gone through different, different, uh, phases in my career. I still use it. I still gotta have like my Wall Street Journal app and my Harvard Business Review and The Economist and all of these things that I read. But I became introduced to those things at the very beginning of our careers.

[00:06:37] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I think really key points were skills is obviously a critical part of being successful and what you do in terms of building learning and experiences. And we know that what's equally important to the skills is the human interactions, the relational part of work, be it collaboration. Self-awareness, emotional intelligence, and I think all of that is what shows up when we then go to give feedback, right?

[00:07:03] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: It's not just about did you get the job done? Do you know how to do the task? It's the how you're doing it, how are you showing up as a person? How are you treating other people? How are you leading? If you are in the position where you manage leaders, you know, who are have teams as well? So let's, let's start to go there.

[00:07:19] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: When you look back and you've thought about feedback, experiences you've received, because I find that often our own experiences shape, shape our learnings. You know what I mean? What would be an example of a time that you remember receiving feedback that was really profound and helpful for you and was well delivered and well experienced?

[00:07:37] Wanda Shoer: I've been really lucky. I have worked for incredible people and I've had people who have really cared about my career and have given me feedback throughout and always with the intention of supporting my growth. There was one experience that actually wasn't that long ago. It was probably four or five years ago at this point.

[00:07:56] Wanda Shoer: I had to do an event where I needed to do some public speaking and I, it wasn't exactly something I loved to do and I had to really kind of get the courage. It went fine and I did fine, but I was still, I. Super nervous about doing it and I didn't wanna do it again. So I went to my mentor at the time, somebody that I worked for and was also my mentor, and he just said at some point, Wanda, you just have to decide to be a leader.

[00:08:26] Wanda Shoer: Mm. You just have to make that decision. Yeah. That you are going to be a leader and these are the things that come with it. You don't have to be perfect. You don't have to be like everyone else. You have to find your voice and your your way of doing things. But you've made a decision that you're gonna be a leader.

[00:08:42] Wanda Shoer: So you take responsibility and accountability for the things that come with it. And, uh, it was, I mean, it was such a simple feedback, but it is what changed it for me. That whole fear of being seen and being visible and being sort of the center of attention, which is. What I normally shy away from. Yeah. I made a decision that I want a leadership role in my life, so that means that I have to take what comes with it and just do the best that I can.

[00:09:11] Wanda Shoer: I have to do a lot of speaking all the time, so it really helped me kind of get out of the mindset of not wanting to do something. I think that the fact that 

[00:09:20] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: he tied it to something that was important to you, which was becoming and growing as a leader, it helped to put it in a context where you're like, okay, I want this because if this is a part of that, then I'm gonna, I'm gonna get there.

[00:09:33] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I also think that you're, I. Pointing out something that so many people have really deep fears around, which is public speaking. And I, Abigail can attest for this, but there are so many people who we bring on, let's talk people where they're like, I am only doing this because it's you, Emily. Like, they're so not interested and comfortable putting themselves out there publicly, which is exactly why we choose to have leaders like you on Let's talk people.

[00:09:56] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Because sometimes the best leaders are the ones who are not out there shining the light on themselves and actually should be. Okay, so let's go to the opposite extreme and obviously no, no names are needed. We'll, we'll kind of keep the privacy of it, but what's a time where you had the opposite experience that taught you some things about lessons in giving feedback because of it not being done so effectively?

[00:10:17] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: 

[00:10:17] Wanda Shoer: It's usually when there isn't sort of a reason behind it. There's either this happened, you shouldn't do that again, type of thing. I I, I'm not gonna give a specific example 'cause it's actually been a very long time since I've been in that situation, but when there hasn't been enough information for me to understand what am I actually learning in, in this particular scenario?

[00:10:43] Wanda Shoer: It's just a criticism without sort of concrete examples of what, what could have been done differently and what I could have done differently to improve. A couple of other examples like I I could add is when it's not timely, maybe it's a month later, but that time forgotten it. And I have had feedback like that, but it's been a long time because I've learned what I need to do in those situations to help the conversation.

[00:11:11] Wanda Shoer: So it's not that I always have great feedback, it's that because of the, that early in my career, I had experiences like that. I've learned to ask questions and to try to get the information that I need. To make the feedback useful because there's always something valid in whatever it is that you're hearing.

[00:11:30] Wanda Shoer: So I have learned to kind of try to get what I need as well in those conversations. 

[00:11:37] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Okay. I'm gonna ask this 'cause I have no doubt people listening are gonna be curious. How do you do that? I think that's a really good insight. What's the way that you draw out what you need from those conversations?

[00:11:47] Wanda Shoer: Questions usually. And it would be something, let's say a scenario is brought, you could do better at this particular situation. And I said, can you gimme an example of when I didn't do. Well at this, what are the things that you think I should consider when I am in the situation? Again? Are there any specific details around this scenario that you think will help me get to improve in this area?

[00:12:13] Wanda Shoer: I. Asking questions that will draw out. The actual examples are helpful, and then you could decide at that point, is it a perception? Is it feedback that's based on something that I didn't share, and there's a perception that that something wasn't done that maybe was done, or is it really something that I need to become better at?

[00:12:36] Wanda Shoer: You have to reflect through the process of receiving feedback as well. 

[00:12:41] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I usually encourage people to not necessarily react in the moment, so I think this idea of probing so you can kind of gather some more information, take it in is helpful. And as you said, sometimes it's perceptions and sometimes it's more tangible, but both are feedback.

[00:12:57] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Whether we like 'em or don't like 'em, it's still feedback and I think that's an interesting distinction, how people feel about something we said or did and what we actually said and did in that. Those both come up constantly when we are in feedback conversations. Exactly. Yeah. That's a good, that's a really good insight.

[00:13:15] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Okay, I'm gonna turn it over to Abigail on our Let's Talk People team and let's see what we've got in terms of questions from leaders and people, managers out there. 

[00:13:23] Abigail Charlu: Thanks, Emily and Wanda. Let's dive in. The first situation that we got relevant to this topic. The individual said, I'm upset about something that happened with my direct report. I have tried to give them feedback before and I found that they got defensive. How do I determine when it's the right moment to give feedback so they are more likely to receive it? 

[00:13:47] Wanda Shoer: The first thing as a people leader to do is to make sure the person knows that you're going to be speaking about a specific situation or scenario, and that there is feedback that will be given as part of that conversation.

[00:14:01] Wanda Shoer: Is it maybe it sets the person in the right framework to know that they are receiving feedback and maybe they, they might. Actually, it takes some time to prepare for that conversation with some, some examples and things like that, and then to try to keep the conversation on the feedback. I think that there's always a risk that if you give feedback that you're gonna sort of trigger some emotion, and that's when you see people becoming defensive potentially in a conversation. Try to remove yourself from the emotion and just stay true to the facts. This is the situation that happened. This is the behaviors that I observed. This is potentially some opportunities for growth or for development in this.

[00:14:50] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: In, in that particular scenario. I agree. The one that I always encourage people to stay away from, which you, you, you came at perfectly, is telling somebody how they are. You are difficult, you're not collaborative, you're labeling them. I think once you go into labeling someone. Those terms have emotion embedded in them, right?

[00:15:10] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So then you're already kind of veering off of the, is this something that somebody can hear? And then it's very hard for somebody to hear, you're telling me who I am and how I am, and why I am doing what I'm doing. That that sets all the defenses off. Like bing, bing, bing, bing, bing. Like all the lights go off with that.

[00:15:26] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I get a lot of questions on this Wanda, and I really don't know what the right answer is. I think it may be situational. How much do you say, Hey, we're about to sit down and talk about this situation that happened with a client or with a colleague, or in our own interactions, or how much do you just bring it up when you meet with them?

[00:15:42] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Do they get more anxious if they know something's coming? Are they already anxious because you wanna meet with them? Do you build it into one of your one-to-ones? What are your thoughts in terms of how to determine when to do that and when not to do that? I think that's a tough one. 

[00:15:55] Wanda Shoer: I think it is tough because especially in this global environment, you don't always have the opportunity to meet with people right after the specific situation.

[00:16:03] Wanda Shoer: You don't normally have a debrief right after, 'cause we're all spread out so, so, so much in this environment these days. I think that it's important to, to share, Hey, this particular situation requires a conversation. Let's, let's have the conversation and keep it open. I, I wanna hear your thoughts on this so that you can kind of manage a little bit of the potential anxiety.

[00:16:29] Wanda Shoer: You don't want anybody to be stressed out and losing sleep over a conversation. So if, if you. Set it up in a positive manner. Hey, I, I wanna understand sort of your perspective here. I have some thoughts too. Let's talk about it, and it depends on the scenario. If you have somebody who's a, his, historically a poor performer, there's all these other things that you need to do.

[00:16:49] Wanda Shoer: But if it's somebody that is new to the role, or this is an unusual situation, keep it open and, and try to keep it somewhat informal in terms of keeping that conversation going. Yeah, and I like the way that you said it. It makes it sound like it's gonna be conversational, so hopefully that will decrease the anxiety a little bit.

[00:17:07] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: The other term that was coming to mind for me as you were talking is let's debrief how that situation went, because debrief is part of learning. The only two things I I would add that were coming to mind as you were sharing, I. One is I think people's ability to receive feedback is a form of feedback.

[00:17:23] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So if somebody can't receive feedback, you can't help them to be more successful as a leader. So I even think that alone if you are experiencing somebody as defensive as something to talk about. I don't know how to give you feedback or when I give you feedback, it sometimes feels like it's hard for you to receive it and for me to be able to help you.

[00:17:40] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: We have to figure out how we can do this and is it something I'm doing or are there ways to help you to get more comfortable? But I think that's feedback. That's one thing. The other thing, when people get defensive, that was coming to mind as I was reflecting on it. Sometimes you have to let people have their feelings, like it's gonna be hard to take it in until they go through their emotions.

[00:18:00] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So I don't even mind as a leader if we let the person bring up all of the reasons that why their colleague did what they did and why the client's so difficult and why they're set up for failure. All the feelings. I think it's okay for us to hold the space for that. 

[00:18:16] Wanda Shoer: Yeah, I completely agree with that. We we're all human. I always say I like to see emotion as well because it means you care and it is normal to have emotion. If you don't have emotion, you're a robot basically. That's right. So I think it is really important to allow people to have that, that safe space to feel like they could share their feelings and their.

[00:18:39] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Perspective as well, but always with that sort of mindset that we are looking to improve the situation, that there is an opportunity to, to do things even better, to grow, to learn, to develop and use that feedback as the platform for, for doing so. And I think the worst case scenario, if somebody is really struggling, we can say, you know what?

[00:19:00] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Maybe we pick back up and have this conversation tomorrow or the next day. 'cause I want you to really be able to hear what I wanna share with you. Um, but ideally by them, let's say venting, they then are in a better place to hear it. I find that people are also very emotional about receiving positive feedback because as you were even saying about getting on the stage and presenting and having attention, like getting attention's equally uncomfortable for many of us.

[00:19:24] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So it's funny how we can have feelings about feedback, either being in the limelight and people kind of shining appreciation and accolades on us as we can be of, oh my gosh, what did I do wrong? Tell me how I'm not perfect. It's it, all of it shows up. 

[00:19:38] Wanda Shoer: It's just as hard to receive positive feedback, I think because you sort of want to kind of just move on. I know for me, like I just wanna kinda get, keep going, keep going, get, get to the next thing. We did a great job. Nothing to improve. Okay, great. Let's move on. 

[00:19:54] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: It's so funny, I was just debriefing with a leader the other day who had just gotten, because there's a lot of annual reviews happening this time of year, and he was sharing with me.

[00:20:03] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: All of the development feedback, but he is like, I, I got some positive feedback too, but he didn't wanna talk about it all. I don't even know what it was. He refused to share it 'cause he just wanted to unpack what wasn't perfect. 

[00:20:13] Wanda Shoer: Yeah, and we should celebrate more. We should, as human beings, not spend so much time in all the, the sort of the opportunities for improvement and celebrate the strengths as well.

[00:20:24] Wanda Shoer: Because a lot of times there's a lot to learn in where your strengths are and getting that feedback and understanding, oh, this is something I'm good at, actually really helps to build confidence and it helps to, to support your career path because you are. Hopefully making decisions on your career for areas that you're really strong in.

[00:20:46] Wanda Shoer: I mean, that that's the ideal. I totally agree. 

[00:20:49] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: That's a huge insight and point that people should recognize. Yeah. We wanna, we wanna amp people up where they've got some passion and And skill already. 

[00:20:57] Abigail Charlu: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So good. So much here. We've talked a little bit about the timeliness of feedback. How timely is timely? Is there such a thing as too timely or too in the moment? 

[00:21:09] Wanda Shoer: That's a good question. I think that if there is a strong emotion associated with the situation, then there should be a pause to reflect and to prepare, especially if you're a people leader. That's either new at managing people or not comfortable.

[00:21:29] Wanda Shoer: It is important to prepare before you give feedback to people. So you have to assess as a leader where you are. If you are uncomfortable about providing the feedback, you should pause and prepare, but it is important to be timely. So it can't, it can't be a pause of three, four weeks. It has to be something that you do within a few days. Otherwise, too much time is going by. 

[00:21:55] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I totally agree. Within the next, let's say, few days to week max, 'cause then it feels a little bit awkward. Why would your manager wait three to four weeks to bring it up? I, I think that always makes you feel a little bit uncomfortable. I also have a couple of situations that I know of that were too timely.

[00:22:12] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: You know what I mean? One was. A person was about to have a very important meeting with a group of senior executives and they were gonna be really, uh, leading people through a very tough decision, and the boss decided to berate them and give them some really tough feedback right before they went into that meeting.

[00:22:32] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And I mean, it was the worst. That is not helpful because. Even if the boss or you as a leader have a lot of feelings about someone, first of all, you should probably wait until you think through what are those feelings about? Are they my stuff? Is it that person? Was it the situation? But then you need the person to perform.

[00:22:50] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So giving them really tough feedback that is emotional in nature, right before they need to show up and perform, is gonna throw anybody off their game, and that's not what we're supposed to do as leaders. The other scenario that I observed was someone. Coaching somebody while they were running a meeting, so they have a private zoom going with that person while they're live with the group in the meeting.

[00:23:13] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I, I mean, I don't know who has the attention span and capacity to be able to receive directive feedback while you're presenting on Zoom, on video managing two chats going. It's already a lot to be able to speak, make sure people are engaged and not multitasking, and looking at the chat and remembering what you're. What slide you were on and what you were talking about. Forget that you're now getting feedback on how you're doing it. 

[00:23:35] Wanda Shoer: I have not seen that. That's very distracting and I don't think 

[00:23:37] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: that could help anybody. No, no. So I think the right before and the during are big no-nos in my book. I think it's okay to prep, but if you're gonna help somebody to prep for a meeting or a deliverable, either give it a little bit of air or don't do it in an emotive way, do it in a, like pump them up.

[00:23:52] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Positive, encouraging type of way. 

[00:23:54] Wanda Shoer: This is true for peers or any type of relationships that you may have at work because we're constantly giving each other feedback. So true. 

[00:24:03] Abigail Charlu: Another question that came in, how do I determine whether someone is just approaching the work differently than I would or whether I should jump in more quickly to give them feedback and guidance to ensure that the work is on track?

[00:24:19] Wanda Shoer: That's a great question as well. Having a little bit of self-awareness in that kind of situation is really important because for people who are complete drivers, they're sort of, you do all these personality tests and you see a tendency is to tell it, to be directive, to share feedback that is going to sort of lead in a specific direction because that's the vision that you have.

[00:24:41] Wanda Shoer: And I'm one of those. Yeah, me too. So this is actually something that I've actually had to work on myself too. Me too. I think that having that self-awareness and asking yourself, where is this feedback coming from before you deliver it is important, but also just having the curiosity to maybe it could work differently.

[00:25:02] Wanda Shoer: You have hired people who have really great ideas and they're there for a reason and you want them to showcase their creativity and their ideas. So you ask questions and what, what are the things that are driving you to make this decision and to try to understand where, where it's coming from. Honestly, when I let go, I think is one of the best ideas come.

[00:25:25] Wanda Shoer: I love seeing that. I love seeing that ownership and that excitement for things that, that they wanna move forward. And you empower people to really bring their ideas and their full selves to their jobs. And if you just let go a little bit of it must be done my way. 

[00:25:43] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: That's right. And I think that's the secret that people forgot to tell us about leadership that maybe doesn't fit the stereotypical role we saw of leaders.

[00:25:51] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Historically, which is the better you are able to bring out the best in others, the better you show up as a leader in terms of you, how you are defined in terms of a performer. And I think we're so used to growing up where we have to be the star or the show. We have to be the, the one with the best idea is A, is a very limiting archetype.

[00:26:11] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And I don't think that's really what we want anymore in leadership. So I think that's spot on. The other thing that I was reflecting on with this one is. There's two scenarios. So just to break it down. So one scenario is, let's say you have somebody who's really junior or really doesn't know how to do the role.

[00:26:25] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Those are the cases where you're gonna probably be a little bit more prescriptive and you may not be able to trust as much if it's not that scenario, which I think is very specific. Where someone actually has to be shown how to do it has to, you have to tell them the way you wanna do it. You have to show them the way you wanna do it.

[00:26:40] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I think this point that you're on Wanda about asking questions and probing is really important. I think even scheduling meetings with interim checkpoints. Let's say there's five steps I need to get done. Let's, let's, let's go over step one or step two. The checkpoints help with your anxiety of like, how do I know if this is on track?

[00:26:54] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: How do I know if this is getting done well? And then the only thing I would add is with somebody who is a bit more experienced than trying to manage people by the deliverable and the outcomes that you desire. So that way you're giving people the freedom to find their path to that. Outcome, but to be very, very clear on what is it that you expect as a measurable, tangible, deliverable, or success metric. There's clarity about accountability, but you're not being prescriptive about the how. 

[00:27:24] Wanda Shoer: I, I completely agree. What I would add though, sort of for people who are earlier in career, sometimes you may not have all of the level of experience, but you have the potential and the know-how, even if you may not have the years of experience.

[00:27:42] Wanda Shoer: So as a leader, you need to understand that in your people. There may be some people who are much earlier in career and technically junior, but can actually really deliver. As a people leader, you need to really assess your talent and understand where you are because what you don't wanna do in a scenario like that is provide so much guidance that you are demotivating someone from taking the ownership and really be able to reach their potential even faster because they have the strength and know-how and intelligence, um, to kind of really drive it forward. There's so many people who are early in career who are just so incredibly brilliant. Great point. 

[00:28:22] Abigail Charlu: It reminds me Brene Brown recommends using the phrase paint done for me. So it allows the two of you to align on that deliverable and outcome while giving them the freedom to then decide on the recipe or the way to approach that thing that they've painted together.

[00:28:40] Wanda Shoer: I love that. That's a great way to say it. How do we work together? How can we land on a common goal in the end? 

[00:28:48] Abigail Charlu: Yeah. Another question asks, how do I hold someone accountable for improving on the feedback I gave after our conversation? How long should I wait for them to get better? 

[00:29:00] Wanda Shoer: I think it's important to document your feedback, especially if it's really important feedback that you're expecting improvement outcomes out of not all feedback you need to document, but if there are some very specific steps that you want the person to take, spending that time to contract, when do you expect there to be some improvement in the area?

[00:29:20] Wanda Shoer: And it's not a one way. You're talking to the person who's receiving the feedback and getting an understanding of how quickly can they develop and what are the opportunities that you're going to give this person to demonstrate the behavior change that you're looking for. So there's a little bit of contracting that has to happen, and whenever there is that contracting, it should be something that you informally document through an email or some other way to agree on. Milestones that you would be talking about. 

[00:29:52] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I agree. I don't think we do that enough. I don't think we put it in writing as much as we should, and I think sometimes we fear putting it in writing feels like, am I putting this person on warning? Are they gonna misinterpret it that something's really wrong if you do need to document it?

[00:30:04] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Sometimes what my recommend that people do is have the other person write it. So the person you're giving feedback to say, Hey, if you don't mind, could you just capture what we went over? Just so it gives us both like a little bit of a reminder for the next time we meet. So all of this is like, how do you use language that diffuses it and makes it just more pragmatic and helpful to both of you.

[00:30:22] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: It also, just really being honest, it's about how long you can tolerate the need for the person to improve. Like let's say it's a task they do every single day and it's week after week, you're still not seeing the degree of improvement needed. I mean, obviously you have to follow up on that, right? If you're seeing improvement.

[00:30:39] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: That's obviously easier, but sometimes it can take a month or two until the person's even doing it again, or it's going a full cycle of initiating something and having it come to completion, which is why I like this idea of having interim, interim milestones, interim checkpoints, which can be in the form of a, a quick sit down, formally or informally to, to see how it's moving.

[00:30:58] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: But I, I don't think you wait too long. I think that if I had to stereotype it. I think managers wait too long to manage performance or to let things go instead of really staying on top of it. I think we get a little bit nervous about being unkind to somebody or not wanting to have to follow up with them again.

[00:31:15] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: It's like our own fear of having that difficult conversation. 

[00:31:19] Wanda Shoer: Yeah, and, and I was, as you were talking, the stability of the, of the manager. I mean, we, we work in times where people are moving roles. Pretty frequently. So having that sort of knowledge that you're gonna potentially have multiple managers. So figuring out how can you quickly take the feedback, learn what you need to learn from that particular scenario, and then, you know, as you're moving into different leaders, try to gain growth through the different people that you're working with.

[00:31:46] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I also think that's a helpful perspective for the leader to have, which is I'm gonna bring something to this person's experience and their journey and I'm gonna help them to the best of my ability, and they're gonna learn from other people as well. As you said, either the next manager or colleague or mentor.

[00:32:01] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: It takes a little bit maybe, of the pressure off of how much we have to hold as that leader too. 

[00:32:06] Abigail Charlu: Our last question, how do you differentiate whether someone is just not the right fit for the role and maybe help them transfer internally to another role that would be a better fit? Or whether there's just a persistent performance issue at play that's not necessarily confined to the role.

[00:32:25] Wanda Shoer: I'm not sure if this is gonna be a popular answer, but I think that, um, I think when, when you see a lot of careless type of mistakes or things that really kind of common sense, logical, then there isn't a commitment to the role. It may not be that they're not a good fit, but it might not be an, an area of interest.

[00:32:45] Wanda Shoer: So the person's energy is being drained by the task rather than being propelled to move and, and do things further. So I think it's more of really paying attention to the types of feedback that you're giving the individual and whether or not there are things that you would consider sort of. Logical common sense type things, mistakes, and it's really about having that open conversation about whether or not this is a role that they want to continue doing.

[00:33:16] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: There's two different parts to that that you're unpacking, which is, is this the type of person who isn't working hard, they don't focus well, they don't care about the details, and then that would show up really, I think, in any role and be problematic? Or is it because they, they're not passionate about what they're doing?

[00:33:32] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: If I had to say thematically what I see more of, I think it's more people passing somebody who's not a strong performer off to their colleague than it is. I really believe this person has a unique skillset for what is happening on your team that would set them up for success and make them an even better performer than they were on my team.

[00:33:52] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So what I would also just add and recommend is, let's say Wanda, I wanna transfer somebody to your team. I need to be extremely transparent with you of what we're seeing and why I think they'd be a better fit for your team. I just was in a conversation with a couple of colleagues where I was listening to them talking and having a very difficult conversation about transferring somebody, and the colleague was really upset that they, that their colleague had not shared more about that person's performance before the person was transferred.

[00:34:19] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So I think that that can hurt our colleague relationships. So I would just be really, really, really careful to share everything that it is that I know, so that my colleague at least feels like I care about their team being as strong and having as high quality talent as I want on my own team. 

[00:34:35] Wanda Shoer: I agree with that. I think it's important to be honest and transparent about the things that are working, the things that are not working, the strengths that you see. Because your colleague can make a decision based on enough information on whether or not it's the right fit. We should always be willing to take chances and take risks on people because you never know what you can, what you can get out of a a person just by really being a strong motivator.

[00:34:59] Wanda Shoer: And influencing the person's ability to, to do a role. But it is really important to be honest, and we don't have the same sort of level of opportunity when people are moving from company to company rather than internally. So internally, yes, absolutely. We should be transparent with each other. We should know what we're getting into as leaders before we make decisions.

[00:35:25] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: In closing, Wanda, one of the things that I think about a lot is that all of us have a role to play, right? Each of us as leaders are here to make a difference, and we're not gonna fix everything, and nor did the leaders that came before us and nor were the leaders that come after us, but we all play a unique role in it.

[00:35:41] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: When you think about your leadership, what do you feel is the pattern that you are here to break in terms of how we lead and how organizations operate today? 

[00:35:50] Wanda Shoer: I think that the pattern is twofold. It's really using motivation to find strength in people. I really, and I always say this, if I didn't believe that people can develop, I wouldn't be in learning.

[00:36:04] Wanda Shoer: I think that everyone has the opportunity to develop as long as they're given the right environment to do so. So it's breaking that pattern that you have to be perfect in a role right away. If you have the desire, and if you have, you know, the, the core strengths needed or the core skills needed for that particular role, then you can develop and grow and, and continue to move forward.

[00:36:27] Wanda Shoer: I, I think that's one of the patterns. And then I think that the other pattern is. Just sort of being someone who considers herself a little bit more introverted and less of sort of that extroverted leader that you see. I think a lot of people are breaking this pattern, to be honest, because I've met so many people who prefer to not be in the center of attention all the time.

[00:36:48] Wanda Shoer: And are still in leadership roles, but that's, that's definitely one of the patterns as well that I feel like I am able to break 

[00:36:55] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: that's needed. 'cause you're right, there has been a stereotype that you have to be big and loud and charismatic and take up a lot of space, and that's not always what people need.

[00:37:04] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I am so grateful that you came and shared your voice with us and all of our listeners, and that we got to spend time with you. And no surprise, given the pattern that you're breaking around helping people to be motivated and to see them so that they can learn and grow that we wanted to talk to you about feedback, so just fits perfectly.

[00:37:21] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Wanda, thank you so much for spending time with us and for all the great advice and insights and for being the leader that you are. 

[00:37:29] Wanda Shoer: Thank you. I was honored to be here. It's amazing to see your career journey. I've known you for so long and it is a pleasure to to be one of your guests on your podcast. Thank you for having me. 

[00:37:40] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Thanks, Wanda.

[00:37:45] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So much to unpack always when we talk about feedback. So here's what I'm taking away from our conversation. One of the key parts about delivering feedback effectively has to do with timing it, right, the specificity with which we give the feedback, and doing it in a way that. Shows a belief in the person being able to improve.

[00:38:03] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: It's about focusing on the behaviors and being really careful to not label or try to tell somebody why they're doing what they're doing, but rather just how it's being experienced and observed. It's also about creating a culture where feedback feels growth rather than what a lot of us have associated historically with feedback, which is kind of fear of being, um, embarrassed, shamed, called out. We really wanna change our relationship at work with feedback, so it really is growth oriented. The other part about feedback is unlocking the potential through leadership. So how do we support people and think about them as always growing and developing versus the desire to be perfect. How do we amplify strengths instead of just fixating on weaknesses?

[00:38:46] And how do we create opportunities for people to thrive and grow? When we lead with clarity and impact, it sets our team members up for success. They understand what's expected of them and they can align to the goal and the outcome we desire for them to achieve. It helps to make them feel more accountable without us having to ride them and micromanage them, and it also gives people ownership while our role becomes supporting them and enabling them.

[00:39:14] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Are you struggling with giving someone difficult feedback? You're not alone. Most people avoid these conversations completely, but avoidance comes at a cost. As we know. We've prepared a guide for you to help you have difficult feedback conversations. It gives you a practical step-by-step approach to confidently prepare for and navigate tough conversations.

[00:39:37] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: It's about learning how to balance, providing clarity with holding space for emotion. It's about structuring feedback effectively and having it lead to tangible actions that drive real improvement. Head to arosegroup.com. That's A-R-O-S-E-G-R-O-U-P arosegroup.com to our resources page to download this essential guide today.

[00:40:03] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Thanks for joining today's episode of Let's Talk People. For more info and insights, visit a rose group.com and find me Emily Frieze-Kemeny on LinkedIn and Instagram. If you're enjoying the show, please follow share on social and leave a rating or review in your podcast app. It helps other listeners to discover us.

[00:40:23] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Well, that's a wrap, friends. Until next time when we come together to talk people.