Leading Teams in Divisive Times

GUIDING PRINCIPLES FOR WHEN THERE IS NO PLAYBOOK

Let's Talk, People: Episode 23

[00:00:00] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Hi, I'm Emily Frieze-Kemeny, host of Let's Talk, People, where leaders come to bridge humanity and profitability. Informed by a couple decades of work as a head of talent and leadership development, I'm here to amplify leaders so they can exalt everyone and everything they touch. Are you ready? 'Cause it's about to get real.

[00:00:28] Let's talk, people.

[00:00:35] I am excited to introduce all of you to Vince Marigna, who's the Chief Executive Officer at Breakthrough Collaborative. Breakthrough is a national network that creates empowering educational experiences for traditionally underserved students on their path to college, and it's the largest pre-professional teacher training program in the country. 

[00:00:56] Prior to joining Breakthrough, Vince served as the executive director of Brave in Newark, a career and leadership development accelerator program that's run out of Rutgers Newark. Vince spent over a decade in leadership at KIPP New Jersey, where he served as the Chief Schools Officer, Chief Academic Officer, and later as their Chief People Officer.

[00:01:16] Vince began his career as a high school English teacher and was a Teach for America member in New Jersey. Vince also served on the New Jersey Governor's task force focused on student success in college.  

[00:01:30] Vince and I are going to talk about the dramatic change that's happening in our political landscape and how do we hold space within organizations when there's a lot that's impacting us as parents, as citizens, while we have work to get done as colleagues and create a feeling of unity. Let's jump in.

[00:01:56] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Vince, it is such a pleasure to have you on let's Talk People.

[00:02:00] Vince Marigna: Same. I'm really glad to be here with you today. Thank you for the invitation.

[00:02:04] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Ah, it's gonna be a great and very necessary conversation  

[00:02:08] We are gonna go lots of places because we're in, we're in a moment right now in time that I think is hard for us to navigate as leaders. And there's so much there. And we have a number of questions that have come in that we wanna unpack.

[00:02:21] But before we go there, we always like to really get to know our guests and introduce you to all the people out there listening. And we like to go places. We don't always go at work, which is our childhood.

[00:02:32] Vince Marigna: okay. Perfect.

[00:02:34] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I think it sometimes gives us a window into who people are. So if you could just give us a story, a moment, a glance that tells us a little bit about you from your childhood, from your earlier years.

[00:02:44] Vince Marigna: Sure. So I can share with you all that I am, the oldest of three kids, and I think that that is important because I think it has shaped my path in so many different ways. so being the oldest of two younger siblings meant that in a lot of ways I had to set an example. I had to model whether I wanted to or not.

[00:03:08] There was a lot of encouragement from parents and family members that, you know, as the oldest, you have to set an example for your siblings. And I think, you know, at such a young age you kind of internalize that. And so as the oldest I took a lot of responsibility for my siblings and really helped them out as they were navigating their childhoods themselves. And in fact still do, just actually got off the phone with my younger sister who just recently received a promotion at work and she's going through the training process and she called me 'cause she had some nerves. So there was some coaching that took place there. But I think those experiences really translated to the path that I've been on.

[00:03:51] And I think the work that I do now is also a reflection of my childhood and being an older child, which as the national CEO of Breakthrough Collaborative, my work is really about setting direction for our organization, inspiring and motivating others to achieve that. And I will just say, there was one piece of advice that I got from my sister about 10, 15 years ago that still stays with me to this day and affects me as a leader, which was, when I was in my twenties, I would get calls from my sister, problem solving calls, and I'd be like, Dominique, you need to do this, this, this, this, this.

[00:04:32] And then finally one day she just was like, Sometimes I just need you to listen. Sometimes I need you to not just tell me what to do, but maybe ask questions. And I think about that a lot as a leader, right? So it can be very easy when problems show up to say, well, do this, do this, do this. But sometimes you can be missing context from the person who is encountering that specific challenge.

[00:04:59] And so to step back. And ask questions to understand the nature of the challenge, and then ultimately if the situation calls for it, coach them or in some scenarios they need direct advice. But that feedback from my sister 15 years ago still influences me, as someone who has a strong bias toward action.

[00:05:21] I just want to get in and solve the problem. And, you know, as well as a lot of folks who are listening, that as a leader, that's not always what you need to do. so yeah, certainly as the oldest, it has shaped my path and sort of how I think about leadership to this day.

[00:05:39] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I love that you were groomed as a child. You're like, I have been working at this since I had a sibling born. it's like, it's like mini training I was the oldest. Also, it's like our parents didn't tell us, but there is an expectation that is different that is placed on the oldest child.

[00:05:56] And I, think that's a really good connection point into what teaches us what responsibility looks like? What being a role model looks like, as you said, teaching and taking care of others, A lot of us come into leadership because we're really good at solving problems.

[00:06:12] Vince Marigna: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:13] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I sometimes think for myself and for others, that you could probably put us in a lot of different roles and we'd figure things out. Like it's, it's a mentality around like seeing patterns and having the tenacity to go after it and fix it. But you're right, it can sometimes like that positive intent can sometimes override the deep listening, as you said, the context or what's even helpful to that other person.

[00:06:36] What is it that they really need from us at that moment? So I think that's such an important part of how we wear different hats as a leader and we need that whole repertoire of like, sometimes you need to come in there and just fix it, get it done. And that's what's most supportive. And sometimes it's about how you ask or how you listen or both.

[00:06:54] Right.

[00:06:55] Vince Marigna: Exactly. And I also think too, I just always wanna be mindful to not disempower the folks that we brought onto the team. You know, I'm really intentional about who we hire or bring onto the team and really want to make sure that they feel empowered to do the role for which we hired them.

[00:07:19] And really try to be mindful of helping them think through how they might be able to solve problems like this in the future.

[00:07:28] Because as you know, so much of this is about pattern recognition, right? Like over time you start to understand that. while there are infinite number of problems, they tend to fall into different categories based on pattern recognition. And I think the extent to which you can work with your teams to start to build their capacity around the pattern recognition and start to become their own problem solvers. I think that's where you get folks who really enjoy their work, you know?

[00:07:59] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I love the idea that you have to diagnose, right? Every time you're entering into an engagement with someone, it's the trying to take in and, and calibrate, and sometimes we have to ask them, right? Like, what would be most helpful? Like, what do you feel like you really need from me right now?

[00:08:13] Sometimes we forget that it's okay to ask And then the other thing that you already, I love Vince just naturally started to foreshadow is where we like to go towards the end of the conversation, which has to do with patterns, but the pattern breaking.

[00:08:25] So I'm gonna put a little pin in that we're gonna come back to that 'cause this idea of seeing patterns is exactly right now. It's what we do with those patterns that I think is our, our life's work as leaders.

[00:08:35] The other thing I wanted just to, to mention as I was listening to you, and then we're gonna jump into the, the topic for today, which is around divisiveness. within teams and you know, how that might be permeating into our organizations given the kind of societal context we're in right now is that we all think it's really hard to lead, right?

[00:08:53] I think all of us think it's challenging, it's exhausting, and you get depleted. One of the reasons we thought.

[00:08:59] That it was helpful to get your perspective in addition to you just being such an intentional and thoughtful leader, as I'm sure people can already feel from listening to you, is you lead without all of the authority. So as a CEO, you have an affiliate model, so there's a lot of leaders within breakthrough and we always think like, oh, it's easier when we have the power.

[00:09:21] We have control, but. there is no such thing, and I think you really do demonstrate that. Maybe if you wanna share just a little bit around like the dynamic of, you know, you're always leading and influencing, like how that works.

[00:09:33] Vince Marigna: Sure, sure. you mentioned this, but you know, Breakthrough Collaborative is a national organization with 25 sites across the country in 17 different states. And I bring that up the location piece, because there is local context that really does matter. And you know, we're in 17 states, but 25 sites, which means we have 25 executive directors, right?

[00:09:59] So 25 executive directors who believe deeply in the mission, the vision, the values of breakthrough. Believe in how our program is delivered and executed within their local communities. Yet at the same time, there are very specific things that happen within their local communities that they have to be able to adapt to And so I believe part of my job as, a leader of a federated model is to spend as much time as I'm able to with our local leaders to better understand their context so that we at a national level, are able to flex as well, to be able to meet their needs and their demands. and I, I would even say if it weren't a federated model, I don't think it would be wise to be command and control, and I'll be very honest with you, that is one of the reasons why I chose this role because I feel that, it's a beautiful thing when you have leaders who can feel autonomous, feel like they can grow their organizations effectively, and then that they're part of a national network.

[00:11:11] And so what this means is, you know, there are moments where we have to be really clear. About the idea of what happens in one community can have a negative impact in another community because we all fall under breakthrough moniker. What are those things are you know, for example, things like branding or how we market our work. We're really clear about those things. And then there's this whole other category around influence. And when I think of influence, it's not just about getting someone to do something that you want, it's more about the conversations, the understanding of their local context, and then it's that synthesis of what we're hearing across all 25 sites. And then it's being able to have a conversation with them about how if we moved collectively in this direction, here's how it would benefit. All of us, you know? And so that's time consuming because I'm not the only busy person.

[00:12:15] There are 25 leaders running organizations across the country, so they are equally as busy. But we put structures in place to be able to do that. You know, for example, we have a monthly call with our executive directors. Sometimes it's based on. What we're hearing and seeing nationally. So, you know, with the changes in administration, we anticipated that, there would be some federal shifts in legislation that would have a downstream impact. And so we geared conversations around our understanding of what these impacts will be. And then, you know, as we went along, around January, we started to have conversations around, okay, what are you all hearing?

[00:13:06] And in some cases, their ability to communicate with each other adds so much value. And so I think in our model, yes, it's about influence, but it's also about what are the structures that can help facilitate learning, help facilitate the dissemination of information. How can we bring in folks within our community to help give input on some of the decisions that need to be made as well?

[00:13:32] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I think when I listen to you, Vince, and why this I think is so helpful for all the leaders and managers out there is in some ways, it is kind of a metaphor for leadership period. Now, again. you have a greater awareness of it because the structure defines how to engage. But this idea of when do we lead, set boundaries, say we all need to be rowing in the same direction.

[00:13:54] It's not really up for discussion. When do we listen and get input, let's say a satellite is equivalent to a human, A person, right? Like, when do we listen for needs? And we know that part of our role as leaders is to serve and this is one of the things I care so much about within teams, is like, how do people in the teams help each other?

[00:14:11] So the leader's not doing everything right? That's, it's not always about the leader being at the center of all decisions and all knowledge. so that points us right in the direction of where we wanted to go.

[00:14:22] We are in a moment in time, and I'm, curious for your perspective on this, Vince, that feels very intense regardless of your political views. There's a lot of change happening. Does this feel for you, like when you look back in time and you've been in a lot of spaces, right, that we're serving communities like very hands-on, working with students and families and teachers who I always feel like are. At the root of what community really is.

[00:14:49] Does this feel different for you when you look at it and diagnose it from a community impact and community engagement? Does something feel different for you at this moment in time?

[00:14:58] Vince Marigna: it definitely does feel different and I think, it's, been shifting, over the last 10 years. It's been more like a, steady shift, But it, but it's been shifting right enough to where, you know, maybe if you zoomed out and it's seven years ago, you could probably identify how much things have shifted. 

[00:15:21] in the last six months, for example. It shifted pretty dramatically, you know, I would just say that, in my previous roles we talked a lot about like adaptive leadership. And, and this concept of adaptive leadership is that the majority of challenges that a leader faces are not technical in nature, meaning do this, don't do that. But they're more nuanced, right?

[00:15:47] And it requires you to view it. From multiple angles before a decision is made. So I would say that's always been the case as a leader, right? Like you have to be adaptive. What I would say though is the types of challenge in size and scope are way bigger and it feels more consequential than it did 10 years ago. And, and with that, you know, comes a lot of fatigue.

[00:16:20] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:21] Vince Marigna: I think the types of challenges that they're facing and the consequences associated with them are like they've never seen before,

[00:16:30] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah, there's so much there. the other piece of it that we're seeing and we wanted to get your thoughts on and how you're seeing it showing up as a leader is around just divisiveness. So with a lot of change and uncertainty comes a lot of feelings. And it almost feels like it's being charged.

[00:16:55] Vince Marigna: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:16:57] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: How is that showing up in the spaces that you're in, Vince?

[00:17:01] Vince Marigna: Yeah, so I mean, I definitely agree with you. I think it's not only showing up in the workplace, it's also showing up in families, in homes, etc. And I would say for us. What we decided to do this go round is provide a set of guiding principles for our organization. More so to help folks understand what's in play, what's not in play as it relates to the workplace.

[00:17:33] It's not necessarily about control, but it's about providing guidance for folks, you know. almost a year ago there were some, geopolitical issues going on. And there were some folks who had a strong perspective on it and, their communication out to the organization impacted others who did not necessarily agree.

[00:17:55] And, and there was no mal-intent, right? It was more from the standpoint of, well, given the work that we do and our concern about. The broader social issues. I thought it was okay to share this information in

[00:18:11] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:12] Vince Marigna: and. I understand that, right? 'Cause we weren't clear with what was in play versus out of play. for us, we did go into this season with providing a set of clear guiding principles for folks which is, you know, some of the ones that do come to mind for us is just. Unity across our organization, acknowledging that we do have to operate as one organization and you know, understand that what happens in one community can have an impact on the other.

[00:18:48] So let's think about this, yes. wear your community's hat, but then also put on the national organization hat too to look across, and let's lock arms together in that regard.

[00:18:59] The other parts that we brought into these guiding principles was leaning into our organizational values, right? And so it allowed us to center our values along with our students. But then also, we have this thing called the Breakthrough Spirit.

[00:19:13] It is this part of us that's our DNA, which it's about focusing on supporting kids academically, but it's also about joy, right? And how can we not lose sight of. Joy in this particular moment. Because, well, one, the individuals deserve it and so do our kids. So I can't say perfect, but it is something that provides some guidance, some parameters you know, I have individuals within our organization who, you know, we don't know how they voted, right? Like they could have voted one way or the other. Those folks need to come to the table and work together to solve these particular challenges. You know, we have folks on our board, in our leadership teams who we don't know how they voted, but we still have to figure out how to come together and solve these challenges because as it relates to public education, these challenges are very real and they're coming very, very fast.

[00:20:15] And, we have to take in a lot of information and be able to move quickly and our ability to do so in solidarity is critical at this moment.

[00:20:24] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: The themes around having community, knowing that the mission and the values creates unity. I think these are really important callouts and, and then also the importance of joy. That even when there's a lot going on and the feelings that come with rapid change and uncertainty can be more negative in nature is if we don't have joy, we can't create, we can't problem solve, we can't listen to each other and collaborate.

[00:20:51] I think that we underestimate like that there's a balance that's needed of the negative sometimes is what gives you the fire to go fix things. But then it's the joy that gives you the, the ability to see solutions in ways that you couldn't have.

[00:21:05] Abby, we have a bunch of questions that came in. We're ready to unpack 'em. I'll turn it to you.

[00:21:10] Abigail Charlu: let's dig into it. The first question, how do I help my team get closer to one another when I know political views and personal values outside of work differ dramatically?

[00:21:25] Vince Marigna: Yeah, I mean, I think it's a very good question and it's a question that's obviously timely. I would say, you know, the example that I shared previously of what are the guiding principles, and I sort of differentiate guiding principles from operating norms or norms of interaction.

[00:21:44] So I think you could go one of. Two ways are both like guiding principles as I seem, are the big broad ideas or like the philosophies that sort of undergird the work that are based on either the mission, vision, or values of the organization. And so that's one direction that I think a person can go in and sort of lean into, okay, what are our organizational values?

[00:22:07] How do we foreground them in a way that you know, folks can be reminded of them. So that's one way, and then another way, or. Potentially norms of interaction, right? Some meeting spaces we have introduced, especially when the topic we know is gonna be super, super hard. We call breakthrough norms where we identify, you know, here's how we will work with each other while we are having this particular conversation.

[00:22:36] So I think it could be one or the other, or in some cases both that would be my recommendation. The other component to that is, you know, it comes from the book Brain Rules, but I always think about it, which is this concept of repeat to remember, we will kick off not every single meeting, but you know, we will kick off big meetings with a reminder of those guiding principles.

[00:23:01] Right. Just so folks can be reminded of them.

[00:23:04] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah, no, that, that really resonates with me. 'cause again, we're always juggling the needs of the team with the needs of the individuals and that creates some boundaries, appropriate healthy boundaries so people feel safe and you can get work done. The other thing that that came to mind as I was listening and thinking about it, I think we have to be really careful as leaders. 'Cause while we don't control the full team dynamic, I do think we set the tone and we role model. I think right now we have to be extremely careful to not make assumptions like, I know that news that came out last night was really tough or I know that, you know, like I, I don't know how you're feeling, but what a weekend that was.

[00:23:43] Because you're shutting down some of your team members just with those implied statements about how you feel. I think we have to just be really careful at this moment about what we say or don't say to not be creating silence.

[00:24:01] Vince Marigna: I couldn't agree more, and I think I'll just use myself as an example. I mean, it may be evident where my vote went, but even within that, as some of you know, these shifts in policies, I. Are directly affecting me outside of work, like as a human, I share many of the identities you know, called out in some of these executive orders.

[00:24:28] I personally, I'm not sure that I wanna engage in a lot of these types of conversations at work, right? Because even though I know where my, political leanings are, and most folks do know where they are. It's more nuanced than that. Right? no one person, no one group is a monolith. And that's, to your point, Emily, is, the tricky part, right?

[00:24:54] Like, we can't go in with assumptions of like, you know, man, Vince, this must be so hard for you. Well, it could be really hard for me and I don't want to talk about it.

[00:25:04] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: You’re right. That's right.

[00:25:05] Vince Marigna: I'm not even thinking about it, you know, because I'm trying to compartmentalize and I don't want to use this space at work to be able to work through that.

[00:25:15] So I couldn't agree more. Like assumptions are really tricky in this moment because I think the way things have been positioned more recently is that there's. Like a dividing line. You're either on here or there, but even within the here there's still bifurcation, and there is similarly. And so being aware of that is really critical.

[00:25:37] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah. Yeah, I think that was so well said. the other, only other thing I'd add is I think you, you know, the way that you described it, Vince, when we figure out what it is that's brought us together to work together as a team, that becomes where the cohesion can be found. Yeah. And I also feel that at a moment where things feel like they're changing very dramatically and maybe a bit chaotically, it could feel like you have a reason to exist and you have something you can control.

[00:26:08] 'Cause part of what causes the bad feelings, it's fear. It's lack of safety, but it's lack of control because you, you fear because you don't feel safe. You don't feel safe because you feel like you can't change your circumstance. One of the best things we get outta work. We have something that gives us purpose and meaning and direction, and that's the core of the team is when you can tap into that.

[00:26:29] It's like, no, no, we've got this. Like this is what's here and the way we go about doing this. Not only changes the people that we serve or the products that we build or the services we provide, but I do believe that all of us, individuals and teams the way we work has an impact on others who interact with us.

[00:26:47] And so we're change agents, and that's empowering and positive and uplifting in a way that I think people need right now.

[00:26:53] Vince Marigna: I couldn't agree more. with the idea of in moments like this, I. Helping people find meaning and value in their work. And I think if there's anything we can do as a leader is help folks maintain that meaning and value in work, it could potentially be the one place that is stabilizing, you know.

[00:27:14] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: right.

[00:27:14] Abigail Charlu: Hmm, that's good. Diving a little bit deeper into this next person shared. I manage a pretty diverse team politically and otherwise. A few of my team members have experienced the recent federal policy changes very personally. One team member commented on a recent change, and another team member expressed that the comment was very triggering to them.

[00:27:41] There's been increased tension in our team ever since. Do I intervene, and if so, in what ways?

[00:27:49] Vince Marigna: Yeah, I think for this, you know, as leaders sometimes we have to address things as a whole group. And then there are times when we have to connect with folks on an individual basis. and in some cases both do both. Right. And I do think it's helpful or would be helpful for this person to.

[00:28:09] Have individual conversations with folks first and understand where they are coming from, how they are feeling, and in some cases, even want to know what they think could be helpful for the whole team. Right? Sometimes as leaders, I think. We can be paternalistic or put on a cape and kind of protect and save everyone.

[00:28:34] And I, personally don't think that is helpful when navigating team dynamics because I. You know, I have been in scenarios where I feel like I'm coming in and I'm protecting said teammate from, you know, this infraction or this, this incident. only to later find out that that one teammate was like, I actually didn't want you to do that.

[00:28:54] You know? And so in this particular scenario, being able to start at the individual level to really understand, what was shared, what the impact was, what they think future action would be, or how they think it could be helpful. And then based on that, make a call as to whether or not it makes sense to come back to the whole group.

[00:29:14] And coming back to the whole group could be, you know, the institution of some of the norms that we've talked about. It could be an open conversation about it. I think it would depend, but I, personally would start at the individual level.

[00:29:27] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I totally agree with you, Vince. I mean, every so often you gotta bubble it back up to the team and do a bit of a reset. But because this could be a one-off incident, I, agree with you. I would, I would stick to having those one-to-one conversation, and it may only need to be with the person who felt triggered.

[00:29:42] Depending on what they say, they may just need a safe space to be heard. If you feel like it's more egregious, then yeah, you gotta talk to the person who may have brought more into the space than what was agreed to in those norms or in those guiding principles.

[00:29:58] Abigail Charlu: yeah. Completely. Our next scenario- a leader shared our organization had strongly expressed commitments to ESG and DEI work, but those policies have recently been publicly removed. My chief of staff wants me to address these changes because people keep coming to her with questions about it.

[00:30:20] I'm also having feelings about the changes. How much transparency do I show as I make this address to our staff?

[00:30:29] Vince Marigna: This very, very tricky one.

[00:30:32] Abigail Charlu: Yeah.

[00:30:33] Vince Marigna: I think some, one of the things that we can take for granted as leaders is the assumption that folks may have our same access to information and therefore see the bigger picture.

[00:30:45] And that's not always the case. And so I don't know what this person has or hasn't done, but I do think. having a conversation with folks about the shifts, the changes, why those changes took place. Is there an opportunity, in this work to reevaluate later on down the line? I know, for example, some organizations are specifically targeted based on some of their statements and.

[00:31:17] Who knows where that may go in six months. So is there an opportunity for reevaluation over time? But I do think first starting with how the decisions were made. Like what was the information that went into that led specific decisions? And then I think from there. I believe in responsible transparency, right?

[00:31:40] Which, how I would define responsible transparency, is by sharing how I feel about something, is this adding value, or might it detract or distract? And so I think it's a call that a person has to make based on their context. And you know, there have been moments as we've navigated the last six months where I have shared, you know, this is really hard. And if we didn't have these specific constraints, this is not a decision that I would make. I don't, I don't share that across every decision because some decisions are, still being worked out. And if I were to share my perspective transparently on it, it may inflame a really challenging situation already.

[00:32:27] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah, exactly. Would undermine it. I totally agree with that. I always start from the place of like, deep listening. they're looking obviously for leadership's point of view on this, so I don't wanna ignore that part of the question. I do think that in addition to what we say, to your point Vince, like what is helpful to say and not say in terms of how much transparency we give?

[00:32:49] And I love your point about like we always as leaders have more context than the members on our team. So that's a responsibility. But I also think that part of what people are looking for but are not really saying it is, this is how I feel. Or do you care? Are you really there with me? Are you present?

[00:33:07] Are you interested in my needs? So sometimes I always think about the balance between what is it that I need to tell them, and is sometimes the listening even more powerful than the telling. So I think that came up for me in this one as well as. If there's a very big disconnect between your values and the values of the organization, that's where this topic gets really tricky. If there's strong alignment of the org values to your personal values, but you're having to make decisions kind of to protect. The financial health of the organization, then I think it's okay to talk about it a bit more transparently. I think where we start to get into like our personal values and misalignments with the org, that's where we get put in a tricky spot as leaders because we are responsible to uphold like the order of things, that's where I would recommend to be a little bit more careful.

[00:34:03] Vince Marigna: yeah, I couldn't agree more. And especially the first point that you raised around the listening. Some, sometimes folks wanna understand how the decision was made and why, and in addition to that, also want to feel heard, right? Yeah.

[00:34:18] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: exactly.

[00:34:19] Abigail Charlu: Yeah, such a tricky but timely and relevant scenario.

[00:34:26] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Sure is.

[00:34:27] Abigail Charlu: Our last situation- a manager shared that there's a lot of tension in our organization right now between the decisions leaders are making at the senior level and the very vocal opinions of those on my team. While I can often see both sides, I often feel exhausted because I know it's my responsibility to hold and care for the emotions of my team.

[00:34:53] At times, though, it can also feel like who's taking care of me.

[00:34:58] Vince Marigna: Yeah, I have a lot of empathy for this person right now. 'Cause it is a really tough position to be in. I think I'll answer this question probably in a way that is from a technical standpoint, but I'll pass it to you, Emily, for that.

[00:35:14] But for me, really what I hear in this is, what might this person need potentially outside of work to care for themselves? Right? What are the outlets that this person has? Right? And you know, I was talking to, a friend not that long ago who's going through a similar situation like this.

[00:35:34] And she was relaying a story to me where she essentially was saying to her coach that, you know, I'm maintaining my workout, I am still eating healthy. You know, I'm doing this and I'm doing the things that I know that keep me grounded. I still feel exhausted, or I still feel worn down.

[00:35:53] And the guidance that she got back was that everything that you're doing is right for when it's steady state

[00:36:00] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Hmm.

[00:36:01] Vince Marigna: and this is not a steady state. So yes, keep doing those things, but then you may need to find other outlets that are equivalent to the challenging time that you're in right now.

[00:36:14] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah.

[00:36:15] Vince Marigna: My headfirst goes to this person and how they might be taking care of themselves in this particular moment.

[00:36:23] Like what are their current outlets, how are they working for them? And then what might be some extension sort of outlets to help them sort of manage the pressure, the exhaustion that they might be feeling in this particular moment.

[00:36:38] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I couldn't agree more. And, and like the listening to our bodies to see what's there. Right. Sometimes I'll feel exhausted as a leader and I'll say, but I need to go for a run today, but maybe I don't need to go for a run. Maybe it'd be better just to get on my mat and do some stretching and some like gentle yoga poses.

[00:36:55] So I think one of the things that I've, experienced myself and I try to teach leaders is we've been taught to override. The listening to what we need, and there's so much unlearning of that, and this is a moment you get to practice that right now because your body's gonna tell you it's that it's too much.

[00:37:13] And that's a good opportunity to try to shift those patterns. The other one that came up around the. Practical of like, you're in the middle. 'Cause you are at times, you don't wanna be disrespectful to your team who wants to have a voice, but you also have a responsibility as a leader to support and uphold leadership's decision making rights, I guess is the best way to say it.

[00:37:35] 'Cause you know, they, they were put in these positions for a reason, whether you like all the decisions or not. We have this concept that we call pattern breaking and that's where we'll kind of go for this last question anyway. The idea of being a pattern breaker is not that you break glass that you sit uniquely in a role that allows you to be able to see things from a vantage point that nobody else can see, and that includes having to believe that leadership is doing the best they can.

[00:38:03] Given their life experiences and given the context in which they've been leading, you're doing the best you can and you're gonna drive positive change, which then will probably not be good enough for the next generation that comes and they'll have all sorts of feelings about us as leaders. We sit in that location for a reason and we get to see patterns, as you said before, Vince. And so the idea is how do we break patterns? So in this case, you have this unique ability to understand and hear the voices of your team as well as to help bridge that to what leadership is really facing and to make it better for all parts. Just through the little role that each of us play, we make things better and it doesn't means we fix everything, but that is so powerful.

[00:38:43] Yeah, that's one of our very strong belief systems. so that's what came up for me about this one, is you're put in that position, not so that you're exhausted and suffering, which is what it can feel like, but because only you can drive change because you can see things that nobody else can see. Which then leads me to you, Vince. Abby, thank you so much for giving us those questions.

[00:39:03] So Vince, all of us from that perspective have a very special role that we play as leaders in our journeys here. What do you think for you as a leader, is the pattern that you're here to break? 

[00:39:14] Vince Marigna: I think for me, what I've been more recently reflecting on is this concept of like zone of competence versus your zone of genius.

[00:39:24] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Hmm.

[00:39:25] Vince Marigna: And I think as leaders, we can be really competent in a lot of things, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's what we're uniquely positioned to do. So for me, the pattern that I'm trying to break is pushing myself more and more out of the zone of competence.

[00:39:44] Whether I'm there because it's comfortable or I'm there because I'm not, tapping in the right folks to do it. That part I'll work on as I'm going through this journey, but I am realizing that the moment that we're in right now. In public education in the moment that our organization is navigating right now, it is really important that I do operate from that zone of genius, that inherent or developed skills and talents that I have. And so for me, it is stretching myself out of that.

[00:40:19] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I love it. Like really going where you need to go as a leader. That's so good. Vince, thank you so much for helping us to dig in and unpack this topic around divisiveness and feelings and uncertainty and change that so many of us are facing. And you're, you're right in the, the epicenter of it right now. So thank you for taking the time and helping to give us perspective.

[00:40:41] Vince Marigna: Absolutely. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.  

[00:40:48] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: As I reflect on our conversation and what we can do and apply as leaders. The first is we always have to think about what hat we're wearing. What's gonna be most helpful to our team and to our colleagues. Is it to put on our coaching hat and to deeply listen and ask questions? Is it to offer solutions?

[00:41:06] Which often is where we like to go first. How do we know? And if we don't know, we can ask as leaders. We're always influencing and providing structure. The balance is when does the team need you to be clear and direct and transparent, and when do they need you to listen to bring them along? I think we're always, again, juggling those hats.

[00:41:31] We talked a lot about the structures that we can put in place if you don't have them in place already, and they differ. It's guiding principles to guide how we approach work and how we make decisions, and how we gauge with each other. It's norms, which are behavioral expectations within a team and its values.

[00:41:47] And values are usually held at the organizational level, and values sometimes align with our personal values and sometimes they don't. So we need to make sure that we have, both at play.

[00:41:57] I think the other part that came up was when do we take a conversation offline and do a one-to-one with someone, and when is it something that needs to be addressed as a full team,

[00:42:08] how do we in these times of uncertainty and change, and maybe even what you would call chaos, how do we provide enough transparency to help bring people along and to understand the organization's point of view, and when do we show what our real feelings are about it and what Vince called responsible transparency, which I think that's such a helpful term.

[00:42:28] And then last, but very much not least, how do we take care of our wellbeing? We hold a lot as leaders. We have a lot of people we're responsible for. And even if we have some good practices in place in terms of sleep and drinking water and exercise, we may need a little bit extra and we may need to even adjust some of our routines based on how we're feeling. 

[00:42:51] On let's talk people. What we love to do most is help you unpack your toughest people management challenges. So send them in. Send in the situations you're struggling with, questions that you have about leading your teams, and we will anonymize them. Give you answers and our advice on an upcoming episode.

[00:43:10] You can write them an email or attach a little audio message with your scenario to abigail@arosegroup.com. That's Abigail, A-B-I-G-A-I-L at AROSE Group A-R-O-S-E-G-R-O-U-P.com. Thanks for joining today's episode of Let's Talk, People. For more info and insights, visit a rose group.com and find me Emily Frieze-Kemeny on LinkedIn and Instagram. If you're enjoying the show, please follow Share on social and leave a rating or review in your podcast app. It helps other listeners to discover us.

[00:43:49] Well, that's a wrap, friends. Until next time when we come together to talk people.