Let's Talk, People: Episode 13
Emily Frieze-Kemeny:
[00:00:00] Hi, I'm Emily Frieze-Kemney, host of Let's Talk People, where leaders come to bridge humanity and profitability. Informed by a couple decades of work as a head of talent and leadership development, I'm here to amplify leaders so they can exalt everyone and everything they touch. Are you ready? Cause it's about to get real.
[00:00:28] Let's talk people.
[00:00:33] It is my pleasure to welcome Jason Trujillo to Let's Talk People. Jason and I had the pleasure of connecting during his time at IBM, where he was the head of leadership development and learning for IBM globally.
[00:00:48] He's currently the vice president of global operational excellence for Stanley Black Decker, where he leads continuous improvement across global supply chain. Prior to Stanley Black Decker in IBM, he had a distinguished and really diverse and fascinating career at Intel. Where he did everything from working with the CEO on corporate strategy, to leading product development, engineering, and taking on many interesting and strategic HR roles.
[00:01:20] And what I really appreciate and want you to learn and experience about Jason is that from very early on in his journey, he followed his interests and his passions, and I have absolutely no doubt that led to his success. The theme that he'll bring to this episode is about uncovering, which is a play on the incredible work from Kenji Yoshino and his book called Covering.
[00:01:46] And it's really about how, as a leader, and in Jason's case, as a Hispanic executive, you have the opportunity to create the conditions to show up as your authentic self and for the people that you lead. And how much of ourselves are we able to bring to work? Where do we need to adjust to make other people feel comfortable and where, where we shouldn't?
[00:02:10] And in the depth of, you know, this really important and I think difficult conversation, you'll also get to experience the humanity and humor that Jason brings to all situations.
[00:02:29] Jason, welcome to Let's Talk People. I'm so excited to have you.
Jason Trujillo:
[00:02:34] Emily, I'm excited to be here. I appreciate you bringing me in.
Emily Frieze-Kemeny:
[00:02:38] Since I know you and know how amazing you are. I could go on and on, but I want to first start by letting you tell a little bit of your journey because one of the reasons that I am very particular about the guests that I bring on and you are on my shortlist, my friend is, I think it's important for us to see different role models of leaders and to not See that it's one note.
[00:02:59] And so if you could give us a little bit of your journey to leadership and, you know, all of the dreams behind it, ha, I know And how you got, how you got here. And I'm just going to give you like one thing that I think is a particularly important for our community to know, which is you've worn pretty different hats.
[00:03:16] So it's not like that. There's kind of one thing you've done. And I think that's an interesting thing for us to, to highlight.
Jason Trujillo:
[00:03:23] Yeah, happy to share there's certainly different versions that the story can take on. So we'll give it a go. I'm originally from from Colorado was born in Denver. It was some time ago. And I'm not sure I can count that high any longer.
[00:03:37] Growing up in Colorado you know, sort of an outdoor kid, BMX kid. my folks that get out of the house and don't come back until the sun goes down. And so me and two wheels just explore the world.
[00:03:50] As a kid, I didn't have role models that really said this is what a career looks like. My mom worked at the same restaurant for, I think, 30 years.
[00:04:01] And so, you know, it was, it was really just a follow in my nose kind of path that of course can lead you to interesting places. In fact Despite showing some promise early on that I had something between my ears and could do math and things like that I also worked pretty hard at living into a misspent youth and actually ended up dropping out of high school.
[00:04:28] So, of what limited resources I had, I was able to get back on track through a combination of night school and, and changing to a different high school got my, diploma and aspired, to be an artist.
[00:04:43] I did actually go to art school and spent a couple of years doing sculpture sculpture really meant spending a lot of time in the basement in the wooden metal shop.
[00:04:55] And, you know, it was the, the, the tool crib guy that looked at you incredulously when you wanted to borrow a tool and had to give safety lessons on. It saws and how to not cut your hands off and things like that
[00:05:09] but the more questions I asked, the more people in art school kept saying, we're not quite sure how to answer your question. That sounds like engineering. And I said, Oh. Well, obviously I need to go be an engineer and also, you know, to, to combine it with other parts of the story. I'd also met the woman who would become my wife there in Chicago.
[00:05:34] She was a painter. The rules of art school say we're not really supposed to mix the painters are up on the high floors and they're fancy and beautiful, you know, shop rats are supposed to stay in the shop. But as mentioned, I don't always follow the rules. So with enough tenacity, I convinced her to talk to me after the 1st time we talked.
[00:05:53] And when she decided that she was going to transfer to continue her degree in New Mexico. I asked her if she needed some help moving stuff and told her that I knew how to drive and she said, yeah, if you're gonna earn your way, you can come with and I started engineering school and she went off and finished her art degree and minor philosophy and many other things she's the smartest person I know all, all good things in my life go back to her, but that pursuit of interaction of electromechanical objects it became robotics and I ended up getting, my bachelor's degree in electrical engineering, but controls and robotics and in the mid nineties, that was an awesome way to do research.
[00:06:37] Not an awesome way to make a living. And that was fine because I went off to grad school just exploring Pulling on the things that were interesting me, you know, trying to answer questions.
[00:06:46] I didn't have the answers to and that resulted in me working for Intel as a factory automation engineer, which, turned into a 20 year career at Intel, where as you mentioned, it was not a linear progression, but it shouldn't be surprising to go from, you know, drop out to art school to engineering to think, Oh, well, this might be a career that would go through product development and, you know, Corporate strategy and supply chain and HR of all things.
[00:07:17] There was a time in that journey where I went from working directly with the CEO and president doing corporate strategy to saying, Hey, when I projected myself into the future and look back. What would I really regret not doing and realize that, hey, if I didn't actually take on some product and try and launch something into the world that I would feel like that was a gap.
[00:07:41] So, you know, ended up actually dive in. Six ish layers down into the organization with the hyper small team of a couple of engineers and myself out trying to make, trying to make some tools come to life in the market. And many people look at that as, you know, anti progression, right? Why would you, you made it to the top?
[00:08:06] To let that go and to not, and to do it without regret because you are pursuing and leaning forward is, is really what fueled a lot of my journey.
[00:08:17] That took me really to a mid career point.
[00:08:19] It was literally on the the my 20th anniversary with Intel that I gave notice and hop from there went to Another company you might have heard of, IBM in fact get to meet some of some of my favorite people of all time while I was there at IBM including yourself,
[00:08:38] had almost a four year run there really focused on leadership, leadership development learning broadly, and pursuing the idea that if you think about a company as a system You can control the performance and the outcome of that system through people and through leadership.
[00:09:00] And that I still believe that. In fact, I got to live quite a bit of it at one of the most renowned leadership development companies in the history of business at IBM. Also was very challenged because it's been a while since IBM's made things. And I realized that being attached to a company that actually make things is pretty important.
[00:09:21] And so once down the block, a doctor called me. They make some things and actually joined SPD in an HR capacity, but went back to my, my operational roots and now enjoy leading our operational excellence here at Stanley Black Decker really. Sort of live in at the intersection of people, technology and, and operations where to bring all of those components together to try and create the conditions where not only every individual at the company, but collectively we can achieve the best possible performance and you know, live into the mission of making the things for.
[00:10:00] Those that make the world so that's where I've been and what I've been up to for a while.
Emily Frieze-Kemeny:
[00:10:05] It's so interesting how when you get to work and collaborate with somebody, you feel like you really know them. And then, of course, our lives are so rich and experiences and twists and turns. And it was so wonderful to get to, you know, hear so much about it. Your journey and, all of the different dimensions of your interests and passions and capabilities.
[00:10:29] It's really vast, which is amazing and no surprise,, given that I've seen you in action and know how awesome you are as a leader and as a human.,
[00:10:38] so just to tee up, we wanted to kind of introduce this idea of Kenji Yoshino's work and his book Uncovering. And how that has helped you to think about inclusion and what it means to show up authentically at work.
Jason Trujillo:
[00:10:57] Yeah, a
[00:10:59] really really rich topic while at IBM, had the opportunity to, to meet and work with Kenji Yoshino, who who wrote the book covering, it's a really nice way to tee up the discussion around diversity and inclusion and belonging in a way that doesn't, doesn't other any constituency.
[00:11:26] We were doing this really, it was a little bit pre COVID. And then both COVID and Black Lives Matter sort of concurrently happened and really brought a lot of, as you know, intensity to the topic. So, any opportunity to not be, you know, amplify the divisiveness was was appealing to me, but maybe just a couple of words about the topic itself.
[00:11:50] So covering is really this concept of really if you break it down across the four axes of covering, you've got appearance, affiliation, advocacy and association. So Appearance based, you know, how do you show up? How are you self presenting? What do you wear?
[00:12:09] How do you wear your hair? You know, what do you look like? Probably the most tangible and relatable to most folks. But the other three are just as important. Affiliation really how do you show up and either adopt or avoid. Norms within a given group that may perpetuate a stereotype or live into an expectation advocacy being more in terms of who do you stand with? Who do you stand up for or not? And association, it's, in some ways, even proximity, right?
[00:12:47] As a woman, do you sit with women as a person of color? Do you sit with people of color or join an affinity group or associate or participate? And so when you really think about those various aspects of covering, it's an interesting topic because everybody participates in it. And oftentimes we participate willingly, knowingly, right?
[00:13:11] I'm going to dress a certain way because I want to fit in, right? I don't open my IBM closet if I'm going to a rock concert, right? In the same way that you know, I probably take a shower before I go to work in the office. Those are choices we all make, and there's no harm, no foul there. What Kenji really surfaces is, That this becomes an issue when it becomes an expectation and that you know, one of the key things that an insight out of his work is, you know, really asking broadly in a work setting.
[00:13:50] What is, you know, what's the occurrence of covering where demands are either explicitly or implicitly placed on folks that set an expectation? And broadly what he found is that 61% of folks surveyed really identify with the expectation to cover along one of those axes. And when you break that down across many different constituencies, you obviously see a difference from, you know, the LGBT community, really a pretty high percentage, Plus 80 percent in terms of occurrence, but women, Hispanics and Latinos, Asians, you know, you can go through all those groups, including straight white men, where 45 percent indicate that they too feel like it becomes an expectation.
[00:14:49] And the impact of that is that. Of those folks that responded in the affirmative 60 to 70 percent of them. really see it as somewhat to extremely detrimental to their sense of self. And that is a pretty profound statement that says, Hey if you hold the ideal that anybody within an organization payable to say, I believe I belong, I matter having to conform or cover to such an extent that it's extremely detrimental to your sense of self. Does not fit the definition of that for me. So I found that really insightful along a number of dimensions. One in terms of as an individual, I actually do have a choice, even if there is a demand or an expectation being placed on me, I can decide whether or not I adopted or conform to it. Now, there may be consequences to that, which is unfortunate and Not the way we want to be in my book, but it is still a choice, but it's difficult to make that choice if you can't recognize that that's the conditions that you're operating in.
[00:16:06] So one is just awareness and and having that knowledge, but taken from the other side as a leader. You really directly have control over the conditions you're creating for individuals. And if you're not aware that you're implicitly creating those, or if you are aware and you're explicitly creating those, know that it's not without impact.
[00:16:30], and many people will choose to make that trade off. But for those of us who see a little more holistic and maybe a little more humanistic version of how we should spend our time here Being open to sensitive about and intentional about the conditions that you create, not only for your individual members of your team, but collectively is a is a critical aspect. Of our role as leaders.
Emily Frieze-Kemeny:
[00:17:01] That's really helpful. Thank you for kind of breaking it down for, for people who aren't as familiar with the concept. And I thought it might be helpful before we jump into answering the questions is maybe, you know, for us to share examples of how this may have played out for us. So I can give you some that come to mind for me, and then it'd be great Jason to hear kind of your version of this.
[00:17:21] So from very early in career, I wore a ponytail to work once I was walking on the trading floor with my boss and I overheard somebody saying, Oh my gosh, how old is she? That was it done. Never wore a ponytail again. To this day, unless I'm working out and I wore clothes that were too big for me. And when I hung out with men at work, people would think that it was more than professional.
[00:17:48] And when you work on a trading floor, most of your friends are men. It was very difficult to navigate how to be, you know, seen as the very hardworking, very driven and ambitious person I was as a young single female. And, you know, I'm now obviously on the other end of that, you know, kind of. Old married lady, and then that there's ageism that goes around with that and, you know, political, you know, views and, you know, religion and spirituality.
[00:18:15] I can go on and on about all the parts of myself that I'm very careful about who I share what with still to this day, even though I'm a deeply honest and connected and, you know, Person it, you know, you see, it's still something you're very strategic about, I think, as a leader. And then we'll jump into what, you know, we want to support our community with, which is how do you do this in a way that creates the right conditions for your team.
[00:18:38] But maybe if you want to share some examples of kind of how this may be personally resonant for you, Jason, from your lived
Jason Trujillo:
[00:18:44] Yeah, I, I appreciate you. You sharing your examples. I can imagine and empathize. I've had 2 great coaches and both my wife and daughter and helping me become more human and not just a grown baby, man., and wrapping my mind around many of the challenges you and all women face on a daily basis is is challenging to really comprehend and, and feel that in a direct way.
[00:19:13] For, for me, there's a few different examples, many similar. I mean, I referred to my IBM closet. I literally bought a new wardrobe to come work at IBM. And since I left, I've opened it a couple of times. I think there was a graduation and maybe a dinner party or something. That I needed to go to, but for me as mentioned, I born in Denver.
[00:19:33] My grandfather was the first Hispanic sheriff of Denver County if you can believe it seems like that shouldn't be a first,, but notable. My dad, was full on assimilationist, like, explicitly. He changed his name from Miguel to Michael. He, my grandparents almost exclusively spoke Spanish.
[00:19:54] He wouldn't and didn't want my brother or I to speak Spanish. We never actually did. And, and what he wanted to be was a white guy. And for me, I've always sort of struggled with that identity. I mean, I'm not brown enough to be brown and I'm not white enough to be white. So it creates an interesting aspect of I lean into versus not?
[00:20:20] I mean, you can really play it out on all four of those axes of how I show up on a given day and early in career. Not having, like I had mentioned, a lot of role model around even what is business, what are the rules, how are you even supposed to play this game? It was just a full adoption of, well, clearly I'm just supposed to conform.
[00:20:45] And As time went on, it really just became too exhausting to defy gravity. And until I had a really sort of established framework or way of thinking about it and navigating it, it always just felt like. A risk of, you know, exposing myself versus not and having no criteria to judge whether or not appropriate you know, good, bad and different.
[00:21:13] But what really actually became Really kind of an inflection point for me in terms of how I show up is really recognizing that ultimately I'm the only person that has to define what success is for me. You know, it was always like, Hey, the rules of the game are, if you're going to play, you're playing to win. So it was always outcome based. It was always striving, always performance based. I fully recognize now that there's a ton of value in just doing. And. You know, on any path to mastery or expertise, it all starts at suck.
[00:21:54] And to take that, you know, more tangibly into a work setting, for me, it is defining my success, not on title or not on position but on are we showing up in a way that is wholly aligned with my own values.
[00:22:13] Am I showing up to create the conditions where everybody within my sphere of direct influence has every opportunity to be successful on, on their own right. And is that aligned with and balanced with the goals and objectives of the company? Now, those, those conditions can all be met, be success to me, even if they are viewed by others as.
[00:22:41] Not winning, quote unquote, in terms that they may see and taken sort of really coming to terms with that. And being confident and secure in that position now, the decisions I make on covering versus uncovering are wholly intentional.
Emily Frieze-Kemeny:
[00:23:02] hmm. Mm
Jason Trujillo:
[00:23:03] And I have no qualms about showing up to a business meeting with my tattoos uncovered,
Emily Frieze-Kemeny:
[00:23:09] Hmm.
Jason Trujillo:
[00:23:11] Because, know, in the past it would have been, oh, leaders don't look like that.
Emily Frieze-Kemeny:
[00:23:17] Mm hmm.
Jason Trujillo:
[00:23:18] Leaders don't act like that. But you know what changes that? Leaders actually showing up and looking like that. And I think it's been not only does it not feel like I'm trying to defy gravity on a daily basis, but it's also really resonated with other folks that say, Hey, I've you know, I've never seen that before.
[00:23:42] It's never been like that. And I always have to caution folks, you know, be careful using me as a role model, because, you know, It only works for me. And if your definition of success is aligned to mine, then it might work for you. But if it's not, proceed with caution. But the only thing that really gives me, gives any of us that confidence is is to be convinced, you know, hold your conviction that your definition of success is good enough for you.
Emily Frieze-Kemeny:
[00:24:12] That's right. And then I love the balance of we can look to other people as a gauge for ourselves, and we have to find our own inner compass, and that does seem to come with some experience, and I think, you know, purpose of this conversation is how do we accelerate that so people don't have to struggle through it to the same degree that maybe we did growing up in the world of work.
[00:24:38] So with that, let me, turn it to you, Abigail, and we'll see what questions we've got and work through those together.
Abigail Charlu:Â
[00:24:45] Yeah, thank you. So as Emily shared, we've collected some anonymized scenarios related to this theme that have come up and working with some of our clients. One manager shared that someone on their team is very vocal about their lived experiences, and it makes others on their team uncomfortable as a leader manager.
[00:25:07] What would you do in this kind of situation?
Jason Trujillo:
[00:25:12] I think the first is, you know, there's, there always has to be that opening moment where, Oh, wow.
[00:25:21] That's where that individual is actually going. Okay. Where this is the conversation we're having and being open to and observe in the room and seeing, Hey. How's this being received? How are other people experiencing this? And I'm not sure that I would immediately react to that unless, of course, it was so pronounced that, hey, we need to name this, but it's in that statement that really would underpin.
[00:25:47] How I've handled similar situations and where I think I would go if it came back again, or if it were lingering and needed to sort of be, we need to come back to it. And I would simply name it, just call it for what it is. Hey, we had a conversation where You know, appreciate your willingness openness to share what you did but also felt like it was an uncomfortable space for other folks and wanted to open that up to us as a, as a group, not, you know, Not for shame and not for blame, but so that we can understand it because it's critical that we as a team have shared norms and, and can really speak with one another and let the conversation go.
[00:26:32] And I think naming things gives them a way to make it more tangible and ultimately in, an art setting where, individuals are very connected to their art, what they create, getting feedback on that can be very difficult.
[00:26:49] You can by naming the rules of the game, say that the discussion is really about the object on the table and not about the individuals. And you can do that really With ideas, concepts and with a conversation like this, once you name it to say, Hey, we're talking about the reaction to the it not to the person and it's not judgment there, but it is with that.
[00:27:16] What are we trying to get at? How are we experiencing it? What was your experience or reaction to it and where we want to take that collectively. I think it just lowers the stakes and creates a place where you can actually have dialogue as individuals.
Emily Frieze-Kemeny:
[00:27:32] I completely agree. And I like that flow. The idea of maybe the first time we give it some grace. The second time, you're objectively Articulating back. This is what was experienced by others. This is what we heard or felt because sometimes it helps that person to then self reflect or you get to learn that they don't really have self awareness around what to share, what not to share, how to share it, what environments.
[00:28:02] And I think it's important like so that's the like, how do you it now happen? You're like, okay, we're here We're in this moment how am I going to navigate it because I think that you almost want as the manager to just be like i'm not going there. That's super awkward. So
Jason Trujillo:
[00:28:16] Yeah. Abort. Abort.
Emily Frieze-Kemeny:
[00:28:17] Exactly. You're like, well, all right.
[00:28:19] So how's the weather right?
Jason Trujillo:
[00:28:21] Yeah,
Emily Frieze-Kemeny:
[00:28:22] I think where we're missing a step. In most teams is we're not talking about the potentials early enough. So when it happens, 100 percent totally agree with what you said. That's feel spot on. How do we generalize this and say, okay, we're as a team. How do we create the conditions where each of us can show up and each of us doesn't show up to the degree that we don't create space for the other people to show up and to be able to talk about this because I think that when we have put concepts that I love, but I think are Complicated like vulnerability and bringing your whole self to work.
[00:28:59] I think it can create a lot of misnomer around what that actually means and that there's there's judgment involved and there's appropriateness and there's other people. So I think having teams have that conversation feels really important. And as you said, setting norms. about how do we do both? How do we create space for each of us to share?
[00:29:20] How do we know the boundaries of what feels supportive to the team and to the work and to the appropriateness of this being a certain type of relational environment? It's work, not a personal relationship fully. And so that each of us can, can bring our best selves. And I don't think we talk about that.
[00:29:35] And then of course we get into these situations and it's a little bit harder because there wasn't a foundation laid, but. That's that's the only thing that I would add to it that I completely agree that when you're in it that that is the best way to navigate it for sure.
Jason Trujillo:
[00:29:48] Yeah. And I think it's also important to recognize. First, I agree really a critical step in the overall formation. And there are, of course tools and resources out there. The only other thing I would add is that there are times when, you know, individual personal coaching. Is is really necessary. There are times when I, I let folks know early on. Hey, I care enough to tell you when you're being an ass now, I'm not going to do that in a public setting. I'm not going to shame folks about it, but, there are times when boundaries have to be set. That was inappropriate.
[00:30:29] Or we can't go there. Or I understand that you're comfortable there. But as you saw from the conversation we had collectively, It's not an, it's not a norm that the whole team is ready to adopt or go there with you. So we really need to establish some fences that ensure that not only am I doing everything I can to create the condition where everybody is comfortable, but we all have to find that shared space.
[00:30:56] And those hard conversations, nobody likes them. But I, I think a critical aspect of leadership development is. Getting better at doing the hard things. And this is one of those hard things that you have to be good at as a, as an effective leader
Abigail Charlu:Â
[00:31:11] Hmm.
Emily Frieze-Kemeny:
[00:31:12] And depending on their level of self awareness, when do you coach them through it by asking them some reflective questions? When do you actually tell them this is how that was experienced and how it landed and here's what my expectations are for going forward? So I think that's an important nuance to, and again, I think I always gauge it on the, what I perceive, cause it's always our perception, but what I perceive from other people.
[00:31:34] Working with this person or what other people have said in terms of their interactions is their level of self awareness.
Abigail Charlu:Â
[00:31:40] Hmm. I'm just curious. You know, if it's the whole team feels uncomfortable, then it could be deemed as inappropriate to, to be shared and you need to have some boundaries around it. But if maybe there's one person that feels uncomfortable in this situation, does the manager have a responsibility to coach that person in uncovering why this thing is making them feel uncomfortable?
Jason Trujillo:
[00:32:08] In my opinion. Yes, I would again in a one on one setting. I would, I would unpack that. Hey you know, we went here or there. Here's what I observed or here's what you said or help me understand that, you know, open that conversation up so that it is a dialogue
[00:32:26] I think 90 percent of the battle is actually just raising it. Right?
[00:32:30]
Emily Frieze-Kemeny:
[00:32:31] And You tell that person, I really appreciate that it landed that way for you and to hold the space for them to have their feelings. And if you don't agree, you could say, I didn't experience it that way. But What you feel is what you feel and that, brings validity to it. And then again, as you said, Jason, then you get into all the complexities of how do you actually intervene?
[00:32:48] Do you need to intervene or did you just need to hold space for that person to have their feelings? So you're right. And then it gets, it gets into a kind of a branching tree of options. But I agree with you. It's, it's the ability to hold space and to step into it with that person, either who had been on the experiencing it side or on the sharing side.
[00:33:07], that is leadership. That is what's expected.
Abigail Charlu:Â
[00:33:10] Absolutely. Just naming it, bringing it into the room, holding space often does the trick for many of these things. That's great. Another manager brought up a scenario maybe on the opposite side of this. Someone on my team really doesn't resonate with my boss, even though I think they are very talented.
[00:33:29] Do I coach them on how to adjust their approach and style? Or could that be misconstrued as covering?
Jason Trujillo:
[00:33:37] Yeah, there's a good one. I guess first I experienced a bit of this and I will assume good intent. My manager at the time, I think, was trying to be helpful. But I was having the opportunity to work with. My manager's manager. And it was senior executive in the company and the feedback I'm getting from my manager is that working with you is not a good user experience.
Emily Frieze-Kemeny:
[00:34:08] Yeah, that's, that's something. Yeah.
Jason Trujillo:
[00:34:10] All right. Okay. And so, you know, fix that is, hey, yeah, thanks. I'm on it.
[00:34:19] So having experienced what it's like to have that conversation in a not very helpful way. I have tried to really come at this for other folks in a very different way.
[00:34:33] Now, if you just go to the individual and say big boss doesn't like you. You need to be different. Yeah. That to me is an expectation to cover be different or you're not gonna be successful. And if I believe that was the only way for the person to be successful, then what I would be telling myself is, you're in the wrong job because this is not the kind of organization you wanna work in.
[00:35:00] So don't give into that instead. It is invitation to provide feedback, always ask folks whether or not they want it, if they're open to it given them coaching on what I observe on how they're showing up, the kinds of things that they're doing, very tangible very objective and oftentimes that's more Socratic, you know, how do you think that went?
[00:35:23] What could we do better? What,, what, well but using that to shape their perspective.
Emily Frieze-Kemeny:
[00:35:29] Yeah, just using that example, you know, for learnings for those of us who are, you know, struggling with managing people. You can't give that feedback because they can't do anything with it.
[00:35:40] It's not specific enough. So I think one scenario is you have a good enough relationship with your leadership that you can tell, you know, tell me a little bit about why you feel that way. When did it happen? What could be different? That would Allow the person to have a better impact in working with you or with others.
[00:35:55] Like, you know, if you can't get any details, it's, it's a throwaway comment and it's not absolutely worth sharing. Completely agree with you. If you get something tangible, then I still think it's judgment. And I have to tell you, I think more than not, I wouldn't directly give the feedback still. I would just be helping that person to prepare for whatever is that, you know, presentation meeting that whatever interaction they're going to have with my leader, just prepare them.
[00:36:20] just as a good boss and coach, not telling them that there's any other perceptions.
Jason Trujillo:
Emily Frieze-Kemeny:
[00:36:26] And then I think if there is useful feedback, it's what you said, Jason, like you're always having a calibration with your team member of like, if are these ways that you want to grow? Is this something that you're open to?
[00:36:39] Because that's, that's where you get to that borderline of covering or not covering. Is that they feel like they have some choice and how much they want to adapt, which also shows up, you know, in our coaching work, right? You can only coach people to the degree that they want to be coached or that they find it supportive.
[00:36:53] The minute they feel that it's punitive or it's out of alignment with their values or their self perceptions, you've hit an impasse and it hurts the relationship.
Jason Trujillo:
[00:37:02] Yeah. Really on the context that the interaction of individuals is very spotty. There's very little continuity that people have. If you're not in a direct reporting or peer to peer and actually working on shared objectives kind of work, and when you overlay that with the dynamics of power, The folks who look up at leaders scrutinize every single move.
[00:37:34] We used to use this story at IBM all the time. Hey, you're an executive. You've been in meetings for the last six hours. You have one thing on your mind and that is get to the restroom and get back to your next meeting and not be late. You didn't even notice the person in the hallway, but for them, that experience was.
[00:37:53] Oh, I thought I'd been doing so well. Big Boss just passed me, didn't even acknowledge me. Oh my God, what did I do?
Emily Frieze-Kemeny:
[00:37:59] Yeah.
Jason Trujillo:
[00:37:59] I must have, you know, done X, Y, and Z. That, that power dynamic shifts the perspective such that It raises the stakes for the individual for every time they show up in front of them and that just makes it worse.
[00:38:19] So it's by really focusing on performance, evaluating how they feel it's going and ultimately aligned to a what's our goal. Are we trying to. Land this mission. Are we talking about your career? Are we talking about,, a deal that needs to be done? You know, there's various lenses to take it, but it's really focusing on Helping that individual become more comfortable more solid and clearer that every interaction shapes the narrative And you need to be intentional, and sometimes it's just be brief, be beautiful, be gone, and sometimes it's an opportunity to go deeper, broader establish more of a connection, but I don't think It's ever an effective leadership moment management activity amplify the emotional pressure of things that are already difficult anyways, and the big boss doesn't like you there's nothing positive to build on there..
Emily Frieze-Kemeny:
[00:39:31] And I'll just give you one more, that I confronted where a leader Was perceiving, you know, the person two layers down from them is not as qualified purely based on their resume.
[00:39:42] So they didn't have the pedigree of this senior leader. And that was literally the only data point that they probably were basing on, that the person wasn't good enough or strong enough to be in the role that they were in. And the boss of that. Individual thought they were an extremely high performer.
[00:39:59] They did an excellent job. The client feedback from the internal stakeholders was very strong. But the boss, you know, was looking for, certain pedigree. And there was no opportunity to change the perception because it had to do with that boss's ego about themselves and what they value.
[00:40:15] And In this case, the manager had to kind of cover it up and just buffer a lot and until eventually, you know, this more senior leader, figured out a way to get rid of the person because they never were bought into thinking they were effective to begin with. And the only thing I can say in those circumstances, because you feel very powerless as a manager, is you have to look at who are the other stakeholders who could intervene.
[00:40:38] and provide a different narrative because it's going to be very hard for you to change your bosses or your leadership's point of view, but they may have other colleagues that they respect who may see the person on your team differently. And you can, as I call it, ask for their guidance to help in changing the perception if it's possible.
Jason Trujillo:
[00:40:57] Yeah,, there's a whole nother hour to unpack that. If people are anchored on their biases, that's not a filtering mechanism. That's not, that's not creating positive circumstances for folks. If there's no coalition, if there's not a matrixed organization, or if there's not, you know, actual performance measures where you can butt up against, subjective versus objective results you're in an impossible situation is a totally different situation to manage.
Abigail Charlu:Â
[00:41:29] Totally.. So on the theme of vulnerability, authenticity, boundaries, a people manager asked, do I tell my team that I'm going through a hard personal situation?
[00:41:42] I don't want to burden them or make them feel like they can't ask more of me as their people manager. What would you do in that situation?
Jason Trujillo:
[00:41:54] Yeah, there's a, there's a lot of degrees to navigate in this 1. I think if you're dealing with a personal situation that literally requires you to. Create separation or detract from your actual performance at work, then yeah, you should acknowledge that. Hey, there's something going on. You don't even need to share what it is. In fact I would probably. As a coming out argument, say, if it's that big, you probably don't, but it's a personal situation. I need to step back or step down to deal with it.
[00:42:30] But that's an extreme. For me, the way I navigate this is that I do, I do maintain areas of Work life separation. At the same time, realized that the sharing and showing up as a full person.
[00:42:49] It wasn't about me. It was really about the team, right? Because if you're just, you know, hey, I need your GPS reports kind of manager, you're just a robot going through the motions if you're unloading all your baggage on your team, then you're not actually doing your job, but there's a healthy space in between where it says, hey, I'm human.
[00:43:10] This is what's going on. The way I try and balance that for me is, is there a, is there a message to pull out of it? Right? What am I learning? Or how is that influencing? Or how is that shaping how I'm currently showing up? Because either the takeaway is insightful and can be helpful to the team. Or it provides the context by which they can understand, hey, you look different.
[00:43:42] Are you okay? Those types of things, if you're not human enough, no one will even ask.
Emily Frieze-Kemeny:
[00:43:49] Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree. What comes to mind for me is. you share creates the role modeling of what's appropriate for other people to share. And back to your story or example, Jason, of the person running from meeting to meeting and just running to the restroom and running back is it's not just that we role model it, but whatever it is that we do has like a five times the effect.
[00:44:18] So there is, I think, self awareness around like what's helpful to the team, what's to not be as helpful this is the hard part, I think, is we all at any given point in time have something going on in our personal lives is what I would say with us or a loved one. It's a lot. And I think it's, as you said, it doesn't abdicate us from getting the work done unless you're asking for accommodation, which is totally different.
[00:44:46] And that, that, that to me is, that's where I draw the line.
[00:44:50] But it is a thoughtfulness of if I share this, what is it teaching? What is it role modeling? Is it helpful to me and is it helpful to the team? Those are the questions I would ask myself or encourage somebody else to ask themselves. How does this help?
Jason Trujillo:
[00:45:05] Yep. Yep. And I think it's, I think there's an interesting analogy with sharing work experiences as well. So there are times when I share elements of conversations I have with my manager.
Emily Frieze-Kemeny:
[00:45:20] Yeah.
Jason Trujillo:
[00:45:21] There were, you know, I share my engagement results or, you know people's comments. There were elements of my performance review from earlier in the year that I shared with the team that were challenging messages to me, but they needed to know that, one, we all get it, right?
[00:45:41] And two, there were important things that they needed to learn because I happen to be in an organization that doesn't have a strong culture But we're really forging it.
[00:45:53] And it's much more a cultural norm for me from past experience, but not so much for others. So getting them to experience some of that through my sharing it
Emily Frieze-Kemeny:
[00:46:05] Love it.
Jason Trujillo:
[00:46:06] Makes it less shocking or less of an outlier experience when they experience some of that from me, even though I always try and, you know, set up and get context and then allow folks to unpack from those moments as well.
[00:46:21] But it's, you know, at the end of the day, almost all elements of our conversation today, just come back to intentionality.
Emily Frieze-Kemeny:
[00:46:29] Totally.
Jason Trujillo:
[00:46:31] What works for me is having a framework to which I have, you know, some criteria that I can bounce things off of. And I have some of those key questions that I can answer.
Emily Frieze-Kemeny:
[00:46:42] I totally agree. I think the hardest is when people don't have the awareness of the culture or the political dynamics. If they do, then I think you can have really honest conversations with people about what it takes to be successful. Because I think that we know that there still is an aspect of covering that goes on in many, many cultures.
[00:47:01] And what I always kind of encourage leaders to do is to decide this is the cultural norms. you want to be successful and do the, advancing in your career and pleasing your bosses, you can be very strategic about that. And that is a skill. It is called stakeholder management. We call it in the world of change or leadership development. If that feels out of alignment for you and it no longer feels like you or feels good, then that is data. But to be naive to the fact that you sometimes have to adjust to the environment and to your leadership. You know, is that that's that's the reality that is the power dynamics at play.
Jason Trujillo:
[00:47:45] Love the succinct summary that you give. It made me remember there was a time when I had to have a conversation with a really high performing, high potential individual on my team, and I literally had to tell them, you can choose to wear pajamas to work, but you are unlikely to be viewed in a professional way if you do so.
[00:48:09] So, if you're willing to accept that, I've got your back, but make sure that you're doing it intentionally. So, they stopped wearing their pajamas to work, but it took a little, took a little work.
Emily Frieze-Kemeny:
[00:48:26] Well, unless you're on zoom and it's on the bottoms.
Jason Trujillo:
[00:48:29] Well, COVID rules, yeah. You never ask what's in the cup and, you know, it's all, it's all mullet. You know, all business upstairs, all party downstairs. Come on.
Emily Frieze-Kemeny:
[00:48:40] Jason, thank you so much for joining and helping us to unpack what are non trivial elements of navigating being a leader and navigating our careers at work. So we really appreciate it.
Jason Trujillo:
[00:48:52] Well, I can't say that it was just a, you know the veneer little chat but very much enjoyed it. Really appreciate you creating the space. And as always, Emily, it's always a pleasure to, speak with you, always learn something and have many takeaways from our conversation.
[00:49:11] So honored to be with you and look forward to our next.
[00:49:14] There's so much for us to think about when we choose as people managers, How we want to show up and how we want to intervene in the complicated dynamics of being authentic and inclusive at work. Some of my key takeaways from our conversation was really about the fact that We shouldn't assume there's one way to success.
[00:49:48] I think that's really important and is a mold we need to break. I think the more we stay true to following what is interesting and where we have curiosity, the more success we'll have. The ability to balance as a leader, when to give feedback and redirect people and when to let things go. Our role in buffering.
[00:50:15] What might be unhealthy feedback or unhelpful feedback from leadership to protect our teams. And when we can help our team members to be able to kind of read the landscape of the dynamics within your team and even beyond it so that they can figure out for themselves how they want to fully show up and be successful within cultural context, because that can differ from team to team and culture to culture and really love this idea of how do we help people to uncover And then I would even add, discover who they really are at work.
[00:50:55] Thanks for joining today's episode of Let's Talk People. For more info and insights, visit arosegroup.com and find me, Emily Frieze-Kemeny on LinkedIn and Instagram. If you're enjoying the show, please follow, share on social and leave a rating or review in your podcast app. It helps other listeners to discover us.
[00:51:15] Well, that's a wrap friends. Until next time when we come together to talk people.
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